>>> All release comments go here...

[GoldenGlove]

Originally posted by no.81
Even if what is being done is within the rights of OOTP Developments, I would not say that this situation has been handled to the best of their abilities. If EA Sports, or another large company announces release dates that are changed, so what? You shouldn't be aiming to the lowest common denominator.

There have been many times where games have had their release dates pushed back numerous times. This is no different and with a small consumer base, the size of the company is limited.

Originally posted by no.81
As a baseball simulator (not necessarily MLB, but primarily fueled by interest in MLB), one would expect the game to be released by the opening day of the sport's season. Each day beyond that is just salt in the wound, unpleasant.

Once again, in the past it has been out around the beginning of spring training. With the introduction of In the Park last fall, it pushed back the programming of OOTP6 by a month and a half.

Originally posted by no.81
In response to those who say to cancel the pre-order and pay later.. This analogy is pretty dramatic, but I couldn't think of a smaller-scale one.

A kidnapper leaves a ransom note to pay:
$100k in return for your child now, child will be returned eventually.
$150k in return for your child upon return, child will returned eventually.

This is the worst comparison I've ever seen.

Originally posted by no.81
If you really want to buy OOTP, obviously the best thing to do is preorder, and wait it out, because it's cheaper.

Agreed, but you better be willing to have patience. They didn't have to offer the discount.

Originally posted by no.81
One thing I don't understand about the options presented are:
1. Give a deadline, and keep delaying it.
2. Set no deadline.

The precise moment opening day would hit (within the week) wasn't really that difficult to finger from one year ago, everyone knew it was coming. Couldn't a timetable have been planned to have the game finished by opening day, or earlier, allowing additional time for delays? Somewhere along the line, it must have become apparent that the process had fallen behind, and either this buffer was exceeded, or non-existent. Seeing how 8-12 months elapses between releases(?), it doesn't seem ridiculous to say that there has been ample time to complete this project. One thing to remember about a smaller company, is that it has the flexibility that a large company cannot have.

Once again, ITP delayed the efforts put forth on OOTP6.

Originally posted by no.81
If Markus had coded the game, and then had developed enhancements that would take more time to implement (H2H, for example), I could possibly understand the wait, but the threat releasing a game of substandard quality is rather poor, and I would expect better from a company which prides itself on community.

With or without H2H play, this is the best baseball simulator on the market. It is not "substandard" by any means. OOTP Developments has arguably the best support you'll find. The H2H will be patched in the 1st update.

Originally posted by no.81
Maybe I am wrong, and when you have people's money, you are allowed to hold them hostage. However, I believe that you should be aiming to satisfy the customer, and I think that certain things (opening day release date, quality game) should be expected, and are not bonuses. A certain margin of error is expected, my idea of "quality" is not perfection (patches expected). The reduced price for preordering, if I'm not mistaken, was devised as a reward for owners of the previous versions of OOTP, not as a reason why a late release date should be acceptable.

It was your choice to pre-order. They are not holding you hostage and if you think that way, get your money back. Once again, this was done to satisfy the customer by giving a discount, not to take your money.

Originally posted by no.81
In the grand scheme of things, having the game for one more week will not have a great effect, but the way that things have been handled by OOTP Developments has shown alot more.

You obviously have not been a customer for very long.

[GoldenGlove]

Le Grande Orange,
You made your post too long. The newcomers don't have the patience to read more than a paragraph let alone the one sentence in Steve's sig (OOTP6 will be released when it has been fully tested and found to be ready.).

[AngelinOF]

Well to be fair some people may just happen to have "signatures" turned off.




I had to disable them since seeing sigs that were about 10 times longer than the average post is a messageboard quirk of mine.

[no.81]

There have been many times where games have had their release dates pushed back numerous times. This is no different and with a small consumer base, the size of the company is limited.

Does it HAVE to be this way? Is it an unwritten rule that every game will have multiple reschedules of the release date? Is the company too small for the tasks it is trying to take on?

Once again, in the past it has been out around the beginning of spring training. With the introduction of In the Park last fall, it pushed back the programming of OOTP6 by a month and a half.

If OOTP is the feature game of OOTP Developments, I hardly think it should take a back seat to any other title. And if programming was pushed back by a month and a half, why were original release dates not reflecting this, while Markus knew the release would be significantly later? Not that I don't appreciate the effort, but if while working your hardest you couldn't meet goals that were set beyond reason, then changes need to be made. You just can't work 25h in a 24h day.

Agreed, but you better be willing to have patience.

By PRE-ordering, I did not expect the game to be available instantly (which would be called ORDERING). Do you ever call a company, and expect a reasonable time on hold (say 2-5 minutes), but get frustrated after an extended time (10-30 minutes)?

They didn't have to offer the discount.

The discount was not given to provide extra time allowances to Markus. The fact that there is a discount and Markus is releasing the game late are totally irrelevant, since he wanted to reward loyal owners for re-purchasing, not make up for delays.

With or without H2H play, this is the best baseball simulator on the market. It is not "substandard" by any means. OOTP Developments has arguably the best support you'll find. The H2H will be patched in the 1st update.

You miss the point entirely.
1. I believe OOTP is the best simulator, which is why I am buying it.
2. I am not saying that H2H makes or breaks the game.
3. I am not saying that OOTP in it's final form will be substandard.

Hypothetically, OOTP has presented the community with the option to take a flawed game (buggy), or wait longer for one with no bugs. Taking the route with no bugs is preferable, but the fact that this extra time is only being spent on bringing the game up to par, rather than enhancing it with extra features, is what I have the problem with. If they need an extra week to implement H2H or another feature, that is much more understandable than if they simply fell behind and are using the extra week to make up lost time.

It was your choice to pre-order. They are not holding you hostage and if you think that way, get your money back. Once again, this was done to satisfy the customer by giving a discount, not to take your money.

The argument of "Get your money back" is so weak. If I want the product, then I will buy the product, and pre-ordering is the way to do it. Just because I pre-order, it does not mean I have to agree with the way things are done. Obviously things could be handled much more smoothly, or there would be many less people voicing complaints. Or is providing customer support so difficult?

"We have looked hard for a way to reward long time OOTP customers with an update price."

The purpose of the discount was to "reward long time OOTP customers", not to be an excuse for delays and problems. I never said it was done to "take my money", and totally ignored this argument which you seem to have attributed to me. I feel fairly safe with credit-card protection, and the like, that if Markus take the money and runs, that I will not be down money. I did find fault with the processes OOTP Developments was taking to release v6, and the ways in which it officially responded.

[GoldenGlove]

Originally posted by no.81
Does it HAVE to be this way? Is it an unwritten rule that every game will have multiple reschedules of the release date? Is the company too small for the tasks it is trying to take on?

In the world of programming, yes. So many things can and will go wrong. When you alter a section of code to fix one problem, it must be retested over to see if the change affects the program somewhere else in the code. Sometimes the code change is simple and the programmer knows that it has little affect on the rest of the code, while other times it is too complex to realize the outcome.

Originally posted by no.81
If OOTP is the feature game of OOTP Developments, I hardly think it should take a back seat to any other title. And if programming was pushed back by a month and a half, why were original release dates not reflecting this, while Markus knew the release would be significantly later? Not that I don't appreciate the effort, but if while working your hardest you couldn't meet goals that were set beyond reason, then changes need to be made. You just can't work 25h in a 24h day.

Markus said from the beginning that he was hoping for opening day and was almost certain it would be done by the 15th. Don't forget that it isn't even the 15th yet.

Originally posted by no.81
The discount was not given to provide extra time allowances to Markus. The fact that there is a discount and Markus is releasing the game late are totally irrelevant, since he wanted to reward loyal owners for re-purchasing, not make up for delays.

Agreed, but Markus could have just as easily made everyone pay $34.95. It had no influence on the timetable, but it does go towards contradicting your "poor support" argument.

Originally posted by no.81
3. I am not saying that OOTP in it's final form will be substandard.

If they need an extra week to implement H2H or another feature, that is much more understandable than if they simply fell behind and are using the extra week to make up lost time..

First, even without H2H, the game is far from "substandard". There are many more features than in previous versions which is why you are buying the game. As for the timetable, programming is not a simple start to finish process and OOTP does not have a history of dragging their feet through the process.

Originally posted by no.81
Obviously things could be handled much more smoothly, or there would be many less people voicing complaints. Or is providing customer support so difficult?

How could things be handled more smoothly? They have told you they are working out the bugs and until they are satisfied with the product, they won't release it. How could this be done any differently?

Originally posted by no.81
The purpose of the discount was to "reward long time OOTP customers", not to be an excuse for delays and problems.

Who said that the discount was an excuse for the delay?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by sadangelclown
They did say 99.9% by April 15.

I can't believe y'all let this clown get away with this strawman.

I just read back through Markus' recents posts. Here's what he *REALLY* said:

Originally posted by Markus Heinsohn
OK guys, time for a little update.

Unfortunately, I was moving to a different house, and this move (couldn't be delayed, btw) cost me about 1 week of development time, and I was without internet as well. Anyway, beta testing is going at full steam, and I still believe we will be able to release the game before April 15th if nothing unforseen happens. However, we will only release the game when we think it is stable and all new features are working as advertised!

In the meantime here are some new features for you, that are included in OOTP 6 and haven't been mentioned yet:
- Include cash in trades (the AI uses this as well)
- Ability to import/export spring traing plans via FTP
- Schedule CSV import/export
- One button to generate auto depth charts based on the starters in the lineups

We'll have more screenshots within the next couple of days

Now I need get back to coding!!

Cheers,
Markus

Note the highlighted sentences:

"Anyway, beta testing is going at full steam, and I still believe we will be able to release the game before April 15th if nothing unforseen happens. However, we will only release the game when we think it is stable and all new features are working as advertised!"

Those two sentences are a FAR cry from "99.9% by April 15th." Again, this is the problem that has plagued this place from the start. People are reading what they HOPE OOTP Developments will say into what they are actually saying, posting it in threads, and then others are treating the new strawmen as gospel truth.

Sheesh.

[no.81]

Markus said from the beginning that he was hoping for opening day and was almost certain it would be done by the 15th. Don't forget that it isn't even the 15th yet.

I don't want to call him an outright liar, but it seems, with what you have said, that Markus aspired to a lofty goal which he would not be able to reach. Imagine if he originally said that the game would be released April 15th? I thought that he orginally had the game marked for an earlier release than opening day, but I could be wrong, and I am unhappy about the delays either way.

Agreed, but Markus could have just as easily made everyone pay $34.95. It had no influence on the timetable, but it does go towards contradicting your "poor support" argument.

Poor support as in a lack of information. Financial incentives combined with one sentence answers are still different than comprehensive information.

First, even without H2H

Replace H2H with "Feature A". I have been using H2H as my example, because that is the exact one that Markus is using to justify another week delay (if he chooses to go that route).

the game is far from "substandard".

When I say substandard, I mean buggy, as in features that do not work and cause problems. I am not knocking the game as a whole, just the assertion that an "early" release would result in the release of a buggy game, which should have been finished and released by now in my opinion.

Instead of having a finished, timely release, OOTP Developments has given two options:
1. Buggy game | Now
2. Non-Buggy game | Later

It may have even been Markus' own poll.

Clearly, the non-buggy game is preferable. However, by choosing from these two options, you have totally disregarded the third option, which Markus failed to provide (because he fell behind), which was non-buggy, and a timely release. As you choose one of the two options, you have either given him the right to release a buggy game, or delay the release.

How could things be handled more smoothly?

How about completing something on time so that the customer is not left waiting and asking so many questions, leaving no cause for all of this ruckus. I call it competency, finishing something on time. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would even give Markus a pat on the back for finishing the game.

Who said that the discount was an excuse for the delay?

It has been intimated that we should be thankful, and thereby give Markus a break for being late with his product. I understand the discount to be a reward for purchasing previous versions (not just pre-ordering), and am thankful for that. But I am still not happy about it being pushed back.


This is an unofficial MLB modeled game (with many extra features), and fits very well with the beginning of the baseball season. There would be extra value attributed to a release at the same time as the season beginning, especially as previous versions have been released before the start of the season.

What if OOTP was released in late November? Of course, it would still have an impact, but I believe that a late-March release suits OOTP best, while people are getting back into baseball.

[BaseballMan]

Its almost getting to the point now that i wish Markus would just scratch this years release and give a refund for pre-orders and just release the next version when hes ready.

But then i remember thats what Markus will only release it when he is ready anyway.
Just because we all want it out as soon as possible isnt gonna
work with him if he doesnt feel the game is ready.
If it was something he could patch in a wekk im sure the game would be already released.
But if you ask any of the board members who have been here since ootp2 or 3 they will tell you that Markus takes a lot of pride in his work and will release the game when he feels it is is ready.
End of story. Theres no if ands or buts about it. It will come out when the game is ready. I dont see why this is so hard to understand. I mean he could say the 15th or 17th or august 28th but it doesnt matter unless he feels the game is ready.

Weve been told of the features, Markus even told us a year ago about some changes in ootp6. Hes told us when he would try to have the game released and what he was working on. So whats the point of having a release date? So we can all bitch after he rushes to meet a deadline and releases a poor product.

I dont think im the only one who would say just trust Markus it will be worth the extra wait. I feel that he would have already released it if it wasnt gonna be worth the extra time and effort this year.

[no.81]

Well, he can't really refund everyone's money, then he would only sell 2005 copies, instead of 2004 and 2005.

I'm not really interested in arguing anymore, but here it is:

I, as a consumer am not too concerned with the plights of programmers. I can understand partially why Markus may be having trouble finishing the game, but he knows the process better than I do, and should anticipate these obstacles.

I am concerned with quality (not worried), and receiving the product in a timely manner (worried).

If you were ordering dinner in a resturant and after 1 hr, you inquired and they told you it would be out when it was ready, you still have a right to be displeased with the service. I may not know the food preparation process, but I still have the right to expect my meal to be prepared within a reasonable timeframe. If I was tipping for OOTP, the amount would be getting awfully low.

[earlg]

Releasing a game without a feature is not the same as a buggy game especially when the feature will be included in a patch later. Markus's poll was not if we wanted a buggy game, it was did we want the game without h2h. It also said he believed it would be out by the 15th if nothing came up. Getting h2h turned out to be more difficult to code that expected so he did a poll asking what we wanted. It was overwhelming in favor of release without the h2h feature and not to delay release for a week or so after the 15th. It is not yet the 15th so how is the game late? I have read the updates from Markus and what Henry has said and I know what is going on and I assume nothing has changed since no new updates have been posted. Does people need to know hourly where the game is at? Wait until the 15th and then if nothing new is posted concerning release then start complaining. It seems like I am in a car with a bunch of kids asking "are we there yet?"

[BaseballMan]

Yeah but in resturant you have an idea of how long a steak will take to cook.
Do you know how long it takes Markus to change a code?
I dont so how can we compare it to something unless we know it should take a certain amount of time. You know basically how long you should have to wait at a resturant.

Markus only said he would try to get the game out by the 15th or 17th i dont see where he is obligated to do that.

How are you deciding timely manner. Is he required to release the game at a certain time frame each year. The game changes each year and just because it was out on a certain date last year doesnt mean it will be this year.
I can understand your impatience for the release and i am too but just trust Markus. Im sure he wouldnt keep us waiting for nothing. After all this isnt 3D-o or Ea Sports.

[Jack Bauer]

81,

The game was NEVER "Promised"(as in it will WITHOUT A DOUBT) be released on such and such date. Try re-reading what Skydog said and pay close attention to the highlighted areas. I wish you whiners would QUIT making up these CERTAIN release dates when there has NEVER been one given and it was even stated that one may not even be announced at all.

Geez what is so friggin hard about that, you bunch of babies.

[GoldenGlove]

Originally posted by no.81
Well, he can't really refund everyone's money, then he would only sell 2005 copies, instead of 2004 and 2005.

I'm not really interested in arguing anymore, but here it is:

I, as a consumer am not too concerned with the plights of programmers. I can understand partially why Markus may be having trouble finishing the game, but he knows the process better than I do, and should anticipate these obstacles.

I am concerned with quality (not worried), and receiving the product in a timely manner (worried).

If you were ordering dinner in a resturant and after 1 hr, you inquired and they told you it would be out when it was ready, you still have a right to be displeased with the service. I may not know the food preparation process, but I still have the right to expect my meal to be prepared within a reasonable timeframe. If I was tipping for OOTP, the amount would be getting awfully low.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Every single piece of programming that comes out has bugs/glitches. Take any video game and you can most certainly find something wrong with it. This is more or less a lack of programming and a push for deadlines. Markus never said that he would definately have the game out for opening day. The game has not really been delayed by much. More goes into a game than you care to realize. Markus said from the beginning that the game would not be done until opening day at the earliest and barring any problems, April 15th. Again, IT IS NOT APRIL 15TH YET! I have no idea what your gripe is about the game getting done in a timely manner.

Markus has been sitting on his ass watching baseball and drinking beer (which your $25.95 paid for). Is that what you want to hear?

Plain and simple, you are ignorant.

[earlg]

Originally posted by no.81
Well, he can't really refund everyone's money, then he would only sell 2005 copies, instead of 2004 and 2005.

I'm not really interested in arguing anymore, but here it is:

I, as a consumer am not too concerned with the plights of programmers. I can understand partially why Markus may be having trouble finishing the game, but he knows the process better than I do, and should anticipate these obstacles.

I am concerned with quality (not worried), and receiving the product in a timely manner (worried).

If you were ordering dinner in a resturant and after 1 hr, you inquired and they told you it would be out when it was ready, you still have a right to be displeased with the service. I may not know the food preparation process, but I still have the right to expect my meal to be prepared within a reasonable timeframe. If I was tipping for OOTP, the amount would be getting awfully low.

If you act like this in a resturant, I'll bet that your food has been spit in more than once.

[Chappy]

I think next year, we won't even get a ballpark date. Thanks.

Even if Markus DID say he was 99.9% sure it would be out by April 15th, THAT IT NOT SYNONYMOUS WITH "DEFINITELY OUT BY APRIL 15TH". There is still a small chance the game will be out after then.

If you haven't come to terms with that by now, then there's nothing I (or anyone else, for that matter) can say to make you see the light.

[rdklein]

(edited for racial content)

[Jack Bauer]

And use an analogy that works, comparing a restuarant w/ programming where in the smell did you get that?

Maybe try something like surgery, in most cases the doctors know "roughly" how long a procedure can take. They may allow 4 hours and in many cases it takes 4 hours. BUT, there are times that EVEN when nothing goes wrong it just takes longer than the surgeon "normally" takes. Doesn't mean the patient is going to die or even have any problems......why because surgery(like programming) isn't always a cut and dry, black and white issue. If it takes the doc 6 hours instead of 4 so be it, a healthy patient. Markus says, "I HOPE" to have it done by..............but it takes a little longer "THAN HE HOPED" doesn't mean it is late or that there is a disaster or huge problem. Like the surgeon, it means that inorder for things to work properly he has to give a little more time than NORMAL(read previous years).

[Jason]

Guys, let's face it. The people bashing OOTP Developments about a release date that didn't exist do not care about what the truth is (like the lack of a release date for before April 15th.) All they care about is trying to make OOTP Developments look bad because of some selfish reason.

No sense defending OOTP Developments to these folks because they just cry that they're "being bashed for expressing [their] opinion" or that we're just blind defenders of OOTP Developments.

They think they're always right and superior to everyone else so just let them continue to dwell in their self-delusion and remember you'll always have people like them trying to make others look bad to make themselves feel better.

[Dud_Selig]

Originally posted by PittPanther
I can't wait to see the next episode of "Deadwood."

+1

Yeah, watching "Montana" & Sol finish construction on their hardware store & begin selling sifting pans to drunken prospectors will make compelling drama. The only thing that can top that is counting the number of times Calamity Jane shouts the word C**cksucker in front of that little "Squarehead" girl.

I hope Swerengen (sp?) kills them all & feeds them to the pigs. He can start with the show's writers.

+1

[swampdragon]

1. Almost all release dates in the gaming industry slide.
2. It became apparent, at least to me, that the reason for Markus' poll about H2H was that he wasn't going to make April 15 with H2H, and wanted to find out how many people would be upset if he went ahead with a release this week without H2H.
3. Given the results of the poll, I would be shocked if Markus now decided to make us wait until an unspecified date to get H2H in the first edition, and would start wondering if the game without H2H was actually ready. In other words, I expect to see the game out this week. I hope if Markus can't do that, he will be up front about the reasons.
4. All message boards degenerate in advance of the release of a game. By the time the game has been out a week, we'll be back to normal (or at least what passes for normal around here).