Karen/Steve, can a beta tester be assigned to check this out?

Ragin Cajun · 03-15-2004, 12:48 PM

First off, not sure if this should be here or in the OOTP6 discussions thread. Since my concern in geared towards my online league, I deferred to this thread.
********************
I'd really like someone (one of the beta testers?) to focus on the new engine and the results compared with the existing OOTP5 engine.

Specifically, if you have a pitcher with certain ratings in OOTP5 and he averages 15 wins a season with a 3.50 ERA or a hitter that averages .340 with 15 HR and 20 SBs; do those numbers correlate with the new engine as well?

The new engine sounds good however I feel as an online league commissioner that it would be unfair to my owners to change the engine if their players are dramatically affected. I realize that all teams would be equally affected, but some owners have spent multiple seasons (or some just finished their 12th season in the league) building their teams with a certain blueprint based on expected "normal" results with the current engine setup.

Just something I'd like to see some feedback on once testing starts. I realize that you may see some slight changes but as Steve likes to say, I'd like to see a longterm analysis. IE if you have a player hit .300 with 2500 hits, 400 stolen bases and 650 HR in a 20 year OOTP5 engine career, is he reasonably close to that with the new engine or is he now a .260 hitter with 300 homers and 200 sbs (or on the flip side does he boost up to a .380 hitter with 800 HR and 1000 SBs)?

Thanks in advance for having someone on beta check this out.

sporr · 03-15-2004, 12:50 PM

I would give owners advance notice on when you plan to convert. That way they can plan appropriately for their team.

tward13 · 03-15-2004, 02:17 PM

But isn't there a decent chance that the same player wouldn't have the same results if you redid the same league in OOTP5?

Assuming the nwe engine runs as the developers expect, any effects on players are part of the chances of team ownership. Happens in real baseball when the ball gets livelier or they introduce Questec or lower the mound. Even expansion or realignment of divisions have unexpected effects on teams that may ruin the best laid plans.

treedom · 03-15-2004, 02:24 PM

Has the spectre of v6, and its new DIPS-based engine, affected anyone's strategy? From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, the avoiding BBs/HR and Ks ratings are more important for pitchers and the avoiding hits rating is less important in that sort of system. Of course, I don't have a clue how the conversion between systems will work internally, but this could change the performance of a lot of pitchers. For instance, guys who were low in avoiding hits, but brilliant in avoiding BBs and Ks could drastically improve in v6, no?

Ragin Cajun · 03-15-2004, 02:40 PM

I agree that any change can affect things, and yes if I simmed 100 replay seasons in OOTP5 the results will be different. However, I have three solo leagues going in addition to the online leagues I'm in and I typically see the same general results with a hitter with a 6 in hits (for example). Yes, he may hit .360 one season...then when I replay it he may hit .330; but you don't see him hit .230 or .450. That's what I'm asking is will both engines keep the ratings in a "general" area of expected performance.

sporr · 03-15-2004, 02:47 PM

I think Markus has said that he's going to try to have players perform as close to the way they did in OOTP5 as possible. However, I'm sure there will be differences from one version to the next, much like what happened when OOTP5 redid the way it handled the triples and stolen base ratings. I also remember how online owners made a shift in strategy when the new aging curves were introduced in v5.

Deft · 03-15-2004, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by treedom
Has the spectre of v6, and its new DIPS-based engine, affected anyone's strategy? From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, the avoiding BBs/HR and Ks ratings are more important for pitchers and the avoiding hits rating is less important in that sort of system. Of course, I don't have a clue how the conversion between systems will work internally, but this could change the performance of a lot of pitchers. For instance, guys who were low in avoiding hits, but brilliant in avoiding BBs and Ks could drastically improve in v6, no?

We have already seen an increased interest in pitchers that have Brilliant K ratings as compared to previous seasons when this factor was greatly ignored.

Karen Lutz · 03-15-2004, 03:07 PM

I'll direct Markus towards this thread and see if he has any insight for us, since it is something interesting on everyones mind.

spleen1015 · 03-15-2004, 03:09 PM

It is logical to assume that this area will get some attention. In the world of text sims, this is probably one of the biggest changes you can make to your game.

Ragin Cajun · 03-15-2004, 04:47 PM

I agree, Sporr, that we all did adapt to the aging variable.

However that typically affected (immediately at least) only a very small portion of the overall player pool in a league, giving owners time to acclimate to changes.

If the OOTP6 engine causes wholesale changes then this will affect EVERY player in the league, not just those of a certain age. This could potentially cause turmoil in many leagues.

With the time that my league has been around, I'm not worried about my owners beyond maybe 1 or 2 leaving if their "stars" are now average or worse but many other leagues don't have three+ real years or 12+ seasons to be in my positions.

And as an owner in four other leagues, I'd personally like to know what to expect also. Always an ulterior motive..lol.

satchel · 03-16-2004, 11:06 AM

I doubt there will be any ‘wholesale’ changes. I expect any differences to be subtle, just like the changes in the past. The engine itself may be getting a big overhaul but the results of the ballgames and leagues won’t fluctuate.

woody5254 · 03-16-2004, 11:54 AM

I don't see the issue really. Will the game change? Yes it will. Does it change in real? Yes it does. The key to being a good owner/GM is being able to adapt to the new factors as they become important.

The real world of baseball has gone through huge metamorphesis in its' time and the succesful owners/GMs/coaches are the onces that can succeed no matter what is going on. No matter what, baseball is still baseball. Whether we are relying on speed or power or whether we are relying on Control,Stuff,Movement, and velocity instead of Avoiding Hits

tward13 · 03-16-2004, 12:35 PM

Good points Woody. No different than the early 1920's when the good owners and manages adapted to the new game while some where left in the past.

Or the 1930's when hitting exploded

Or the late 60's when pitchers got their revenge

Sure it will shake things up, but in some ways that'll make it more interesting.

Besides, as I said before, if the programmers did their jobs, then the results shouldn't that dissimilar. It should evaluate the abilities, or stats of players and generate realistic results.

satchel · 03-16-2004, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody5254
...baseball is still baseball. Whether we are relying on speed or power or whether we are relying on Control,Stuff,Movement, and velocity instead of Avoiding Hits

This was my point. One way or the other OotP will reward good baseball management skills.

I’m like all the other owners out there: I’m wondering how the conversion from v5 to v6 will affect my players, which player attributes will be more important, what do I need to focus on in my last v5 draft for those same players to be effective in v6, etc.

I think that v6 will bring no radical changes to existing players, teams, and leagues. Certain player ratings might disappear, change, or skew, but I won’t need to reassess my players or strategy.

Ragin Cajun · 03-16-2004, 02:27 PM

And if that's true, then that's fine. But that's what I'm trying to ascertain if there will be drastic differences and if player performance/production will be skewed causing a major shift in player assessment and/or strategy.

Mainly, I feel it's only fair to let owners know so they can begin tweaking their teams and draft strategy if needed rather than just dumping on them and possibly having a 100+ win team become a sub-.500 club overnight with the same players.

Ragin Cajun · 04-04-2004, 11:17 AM

Well, it's been a few weeks and I know the game is in beta now. Therefore I feel the urge to bump this back up to the light of day and see if there is any further information on this subject.

Sorry for being anal retentive on this issue but I am still of the opinion that this will be a major issue that could affect leagues.

03-15-2004, 12:48 PM	#1
Ragin Cajun All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Atascosita, TX Posts: 1,173	Karen/Steve, can a beta tester be assigned to check this out? First off, not sure if this should be here or in the OOTP6 discussions thread. Since my concern in geared towards my online league, I deferred to this thread. ******************** I'd really like someone (one of the beta testers?) to focus on the new engine and the results compared with the existing OOTP5 engine. Specifically, if you have a pitcher with certain ratings in OOTP5 and he averages 15 wins a season with a 3.50 ERA or a hitter that averages .340 with 15 HR and 20 SBs; do those numbers correlate with the new engine as well? The new engine sounds good however I feel as an online league commissioner that it would be unfair to my owners to change the engine if their players are dramatically affected. I realize that all teams would be equally affected, but some owners have spent multiple seasons (or some just finished their 12th season in the league) building their teams with a certain blueprint based on expected "normal" results with the current engine setup. Just something I'd like to see some feedback on once testing starts. I realize that you may see some slight changes but as Steve likes to say, I'd like to see a longterm analysis. IE if you have a player hit .300 with 2500 hits, 400 stolen bases and 650 HR in a 20 year OOTP5 engine career, is he reasonably close to that with the new engine or is he now a .260 hitter with 300 homers and 200 sbs (or on the flip side does he boost up to a .380 hitter with 800 HR and 1000 SBs)? Thanks in advance for having someone on beta check this out. __________________ Former NBSL Commissioner: 16 years Former Online League Owner; six time champion

03-15-2004, 02:24 PM	#4
treedom Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Transylvania Posts: 2,900	Has the spectre of v6, and its new DIPS-based engine, affected anyone's strategy? From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, the avoiding BBs/HR and Ks ratings are more important for pitchers and the avoiding hits rating is less important in that sort of system. Of course, I don't have a clue how the conversion between systems will work internally, but this could change the performance of a lot of pitchers. For instance, guys who were low in avoiding hits, but brilliant in avoiding BBs and Ks could drastically improve in v6, no? __________________ A rake and a roustabout.

03-15-2004, 02:40 PM	#5
Ragin Cajun All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Atascosita, TX Posts: 1,173	I agree that any change can affect things, and yes if I simmed 100 replay seasons in OOTP5 the results will be different. However, I have three solo leagues going in addition to the online leagues I'm in and I typically see the same general results with a hitter with a 6 in hits (for example). Yes, he may hit .360 one season...then when I replay it he may hit .330; but you don't see him hit .230 or .450. That's what I'm asking is will both engines keep the ratings in a "general" area of expected performance. __________________ Former NBSL Commissioner: 16 years Former Online League Owner; six time champion

03-15-2004, 04:47 PM	#10
Ragin Cajun All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Atascosita, TX Posts: 1,173	I agree, Sporr, that we all did adapt to the aging variable. However that typically affected (immediately at least) only a very small portion of the overall player pool in a league, giving owners time to acclimate to changes. If the OOTP6 engine causes wholesale changes then this will affect EVERY player in the league, not just those of a certain age. This could potentially cause turmoil in many leagues. With the time that my league has been around, I'm not worried about my owners beyond maybe 1 or 2 leaving if their "stars" are now average or worse but many other leagues don't have three+ real years or 12+ seasons to be in my positions. And as an owner in four other leagues, I'd personally like to know what to expect also. Always an ulterior motive..lol. __________________ Former NBSL Commissioner: 16 years Former Online League Owner; six time champion

03-16-2004, 11:06 AM	#11
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith Ark. USA Posts: 2,681	I doubt there will be any ‘wholesale’ changes. I expect any differences to be subtle, just like the changes in the past. The engine itself may be getting a big overhaul but the results of the ballgames and leagues won’t fluctuate. __________________ JL Commish NPBL Rhode Island Reds ’33 ’34 ’35 TCBA San Francisco Railbornes ’74 ’76 ’77 ’78 FL New Orleans Black Sox ’56 ’57 ’58 ’59

03-15-2004, 12:50 PM	#2
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	I would give owners advance notice on when you plan to convert. That way they can plan appropriately for their team.

03-15-2004, 02:17 PM	#3
tward13 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,964	But isn't there a decent chance that the same player wouldn't have the same results if you redid the same league in OOTP5? Assuming the nwe engine runs as the developers expect, any effects on players are part of the chances of team ownership. Happens in real baseball when the ball gets livelier or they introduce Questec or lower the mound. Even expansion or realignment of divisions have unexpected effects on teams that may ruin the best laid plans.

03-15-2004, 02:47 PM	#6
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	I think Markus has said that he's going to try to have players perform as close to the way they did in OOTP5 as possible. However, I'm sure there will be differences from one version to the next, much like what happened when OOTP5 redid the way it handled the triples and stolen base ratings. I also remember how online owners made a shift in strategy when the new aging curves were introduced in v5.

03-15-2004, 03:07 PM	#8
Karen Lutz Ball Breaker Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada OOTPChampionships: 5 Posts: 898	I'll direct Markus towards this thread and see if he has any insight for us, since it is something interesting on everyones mind.

03-15-2004, 03:09 PM	#9
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,005	It is logical to assume that this area will get some attention. In the world of text sims, this is probably one of the biggest changes you can make to your game.

03-16-2004, 11:54 AM	#12
woody5254 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hector, NY Posts: 6,130	I don't see the issue really. Will the game change? Yes it will. Does it change in real? Yes it does. The key to being a good owner/GM is being able to adapt to the new factors as they become important. The real world of baseball has gone through huge metamorphesis in its' time and the succesful owners/GMs/coaches are the onces that can succeed no matter what is going on. No matter what, baseball is still baseball. Whether we are relying on speed or power or whether we are relying on Control,Stuff,Movement, and velocity instead of Avoiding Hits __________________ Check out: You Pick Tourney Version 2.0 Standings Thread You Pick The Teams Tourney: Main Thread The Colossal 20th Century Tourney:Main Thread Chicago White Sox(Original Owner:2001-) Baseball Maelstrom -2001,2011,2013 World Series Champions -2002,2010 Maelstrom Tourney Champs Arizona Diamondbacks(2003-) NAHHBL Indianapolis Racers(Expansion Team:1993-)ABC

03-16-2004, 12:35 PM	#13
tward13 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,964	Good points Woody. No different than the early 1920's when the good owners and manages adapted to the new game while some where left in the past. Or the 1930's when hitting exploded Or the late 60's when pitchers got their revenge Sure it will shake things up, but in some ways that'll make it more interesting. Besides, as I said before, if the programmers did their jobs, then the results shouldn't that dissimilar. It should evaluate the abilities, or stats of players and generate realistic results.

03-16-2004, 02:27 PM	#15
Ragin Cajun All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Atascosita, TX Posts: 1,173	And if that's true, then that's fine. But that's what I'm trying to ascertain if there will be drastic differences and if player performance/production will be skewed causing a major shift in player assessment and/or strategy. Mainly, I feel it's only fair to let owners know so they can begin tweaking their teams and draft strategy if needed rather than just dumping on them and possibly having a 100+ win team become a sub-.500 club overnight with the same players. __________________ Former NBSL Commissioner: 16 years Former Online League Owner; six time champion

04-04-2004, 11:17 AM	#16
Ragin Cajun All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Atascosita, TX Posts: 1,173	Well, it's been a few weeks and I know the game is in beta now. Therefore I feel the urge to bump this back up to the light of day and see if there is any further information on this subject. Sorry for being anal retentive on this issue but I am still of the opinion that this will be a major issue that could affect leagues. __________________ Former NBSL Commissioner: 16 years Former Online League Owner; six time champion