OOTP6 - speed up release ? - OPEN for comments

[Henry]

moore4807,

I, personally, do not have details. The following quote was from Markus in a June, 2003 post....

The financial coefficient is driving me nuts, and this has to be delayed again

Notice, however, he did say delayed - not cancelled.

Henry

[treedom]

here's a more recent quote:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...al+coefficient

[Johnny Slick]

Originally posted by MidnightPyro
I would say this is a good compromise.
A beta release for everyone who wants to play the game early. This means Markus could just shove this out sometime, sort of like throwing meat to the wolves Everyone who wants the game early in it's current state without H2H would get just this, and everyone who'd like to play it like this would be perfectly happy if it wasn't an official release.

I disagree. It would be throwing raw meat that hasn't been tested for ringworm to the wolves. I've never actually beta-tested myself, but I know several people who have, and one thing that they say is that after doing this, they're rather tired of the game and can't have fun playing it for a while.

It's freaking frustrating to set up a league and get it running only to find out that some option that you selected 3 hours ago makes the game crash right before you're about to win Game 7 of the World Series. The fact that you're going to get the bug-free version for free eventually helps things somewhat, as does the knowledge that you're contributing to the creation of a (potentially) really great game, but if you start charging people to play a beta then you can forget about engendering that goodwill.

Look, folks. 3 months from now, nobody is going to give a damn about whether the game came out on April 2nd or April 12th. They *will* care about whether or not the game's initial release was playable, because first impressions mean a lot.

[moore4807]

Henry
OK,thanks for the quick reply...

My $.02 about OOTP6 - the answer lies in the +80% that want the game NOW. I personally dont give a rats arse about online leagues, thats why I play Yahoo & ESPN. I want this game to spend a rainy afternoon with ( like today) I am more of a simulation player than a RTS player anyway, so I dont have to have absolutely correct information to enjoy the game, I dont get worked up about my favorite player not having the correct player uniform number on the screen, I DO enjoy the business end of he game and played Madden 2004 just so I could make the most profitable franchise consistently....maybe I'll get to do that with OOTP6 - thats why I asked about the financial aspect in the earlier post.
So mark me down with the masses on this one point....

[Hubertdd1]

So since H2H won't make it, when will we see OOTP 6, Exams are coming up very very soon and if OOTP 6 doesn't come out soon then I will have to wait a month before playing it.

So please Markus hook me up

Originally posted by Hubertdd1
So since H2H won't make it

I've never seen a place so plagued by lack of reading comprehension in my life. Markus says one thing not even close to "H2H is cancelled" and all of a sudden we got 100 posts about H2H being just that -- cancelled. Never gonna make it. Destroyed. Dead. Killed by the man. We're hoodwinked into pre-ordering!

On and on and on.

The man said it'd be in there in 2-3 weeks as a patch or delay the release up to at least a week with coding and testing on a guesstimate. That's what he _said_ plain as day. If you get irritated by something not said and read more into it than that, then you should be upset with your own stupidity or your third grade reading teacher. Not the fact that H2H is "taken away from you" or pronounced clinically dead. Because that has _never_ been said.

Good day.

Jase

[Henry]

CSteinhardt,

Just to clarify a point from your earlier post. Anyone can request a refund from Via-tech at any time since this was a pre-order. That has never been an issue

Henry

[MidnightPyro]

Johhny Slick,
I see where your coming from here. That it may be a very bad idea shoving an incomplete and beta product out. Even I believe that putting out an incomplete and beta game with bugs might cause a lot of heartache and problems. But 87% or so of the people on these boards say that they want the game now, or they want it as soon as possible. There's been a lot of whining, complaining, and overally useless posts asking when the game will be released. Releasing the game would fix this, but it might open up an entirely new problem. But when 87% of the users on this board are crying for a release as soon as possible, well, there's a problem. I'm pretty sure the developers want to make sure everyone is happy.
And yes, in the long run, I'm pretty sure no one will care whether OOTP6 was released today, or April 15th. Which is why I think it would be best if everyone would just be patient. I'm sure a lot of other people are getting frustrated about the pointless posts that are being made here in anticpation of OOTP. But when 87% of people on this board want a release early, I'd guess that the developers would probably atleast want to look into something.

[Johnny Slick]

I'm one of the 87%! But only because of the way the question was worded. I don't want a half-assed H2H module in there that might screw up other things in any leagues I run if I tried to mess around with it. However, if Markus can release a more or less finished game (I'll take the odd bug or two) then I'm all for it, even if it ships without a major feature for this year (personally, I think that H2H should have waited for V7 anyway because this year also features a complete engine overhaul, but that's just me).

Oh yeah, and I just realized that I was a beta-tester once in that I purchased Total Pro Basketball the first week it came out.

[CSteinhardt]

Sorry, I think you misunderstand.

What I'm advocating is releasing a completed and tested game minus the head to head option. Completed and tested. But calling that beta and not announcing it as the official release of OOTP6. Kinda like a sneak preview just for the people that pre-ordered.

Then, when the Head to Head is ready, have the official release.

So I'm not suggesting you release a true beta or truly buggy code or anything like that. I'm suggesting that if you want to release the game missing one important feature, but otherwise perfectly tested and playable, that you call it a beta version because that makes everybody happy and that you delay whatever advertising campaign will accompany the official release until the full game including all advertised features is ready.

[HolyCow98]

87 % of the people who are hitting refresh every 5 seconds

I would venture to guess that we have mostly people who are busting at the seams to get the game...and a few vets who are solo only voting yes.....

And then a fewer newer people who want OOTP 6 primarily for H2H and the rest of the vets and regulars on the boards voting no...
I still think if put to a vote more people would want the game now...no matter what....but I think if there was someway to have every OOTP5 user (who will be purchasing OOTP6) to a vote it would be closer....they would still lose...just cuz of the nature of people...but it wouldn'y be 87-90 % landslide you see from these results...

Thats just my opinion anyway.....

Markus I hope the coding is going well.

[Hubertdd1]

When I said it's not going to make it, I was implying that H2H won't be making the first release of the game.

I have confindence that it will be givin through a patch however as these polls are indicating it seems doubtful that the game will be released with H2H.

As for my opinion, I am not looking forward to h2h. To me it will just be a feature that will go unused.

[Northernsky]

i think the numbers in the poll speak volumes.

Scott

[Queensryche]

Either way is fine with me....but why not just take a few extra days and put it in the game for the inital release? I won't even use the feature personally...but I mean are you all so impatient that you can't wait one more week for it to be implemented totally?

I say wait a week and finish the game...then worry about fixing things in patchs.

[Bluenoser]

Try looking at the whole picture and not just the "even if the H2H doesn't get in, you still won't have in 2 weeks anyway so what's the difference.

Try looking past what's important individually to just you (just to clarify this means no one in particular but generally) and looking at what's important to the good of the game.

Let's suppose the game is released without H2H, it's played by the masses for a few weeks, some bugs are identified, Markus creates a patch, which also includes H2H play, and releases it. The bugs are fixed, but now H2H has some fallout, creating other bugs. Now we go another couple weeks of the masses playing the game and all areas, including H2H getting a good workout. More bugs, because of the fallout, and more waiting for the game to work properly. There's no way of knowing if adding H2H later will create more bugs or not, but 1/2 my point here (the other 1/2 being the financial co-efficient) is complete the game, test it as a complete game, release it as complete game, let the massses play it as a complete game. This will give it a good run through in all areas from the beginning, and not only partially.

Anyway, I've barked for the last time on this subject.

Markus will do as he sees fit.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally posted by Chappy
But, also 'technically speaking', opening day is Monday.

According to MLB.com, the Yankees/Devil Rays in Japan was the 'Opening Series'. April 4th is the 'Season Opener', and Monday, April 5th is 'Opening Day'.

True, but see the quote below.

Originally posted by BruceM
My personal feeling is there's only 1 opening day, and that day happens to be whenever the first regular season game is played.

This is the interpretation I subscribe to as well.

Originally posted by moore4807
Is it possible to give us a thumbnail idea - what is the problem with the financial coefficient? I am assuming a base cost for ticket, use year 2000 for example $35 for an average seat. Then figuring 4% inflation per year for every year forward or backwards this equals a 1990 ticket averaging $23.27, a 1980 ticket averages $15.47 etc.

The problem arises that player salaries, amongst other things, have risen MUCH faster than the rate of inflation. Consider that the MLB average ticket price in 1960 was $1.96, and the highest paid player was making around $85,000 per season. Adjusting for inflation, that ticket price in 2003 dollars would be $12.17 and the highest salary $528,000 per season. The real amounts in 2003, of course, were far higher than this.

The second problem is that inflation varies considerably over periods of time, working against the use of a long-term average figure. Such a long-term average would result in some serious departures from real-world prices and salaries for some years. Consider that in 1990 the MLB average ticket price was around $8.84, while in 1980 the average price was $4.45. Converting those values into 2003 dollars yields $12.43 and $9.93, respectively, far below the values you arrived at using the 4% per year average.

So, to really get values more into line with reality, the whole scope of the financial engine must be considered. It is my opinion, and shared by some others, that the way to get more era-realistic salaries is by finding the appropriate way of getting team income into line with the historical period, since a team can't spend more on a player than it makes in revenue.

I made a rather large suggestion post along these lines a few weeks back; you may want to check it out.

Originally posted by Ragnar
Posting something like get it out now because I never play h2h anyway is like saying who cars about gas prices i take the bus.

Heheh, I'm sure the pun here was unintended, but damn, it's still a good one!

Originally posted by MidnightPyro
And yes, in the long run, I'm pretty sure no one will care whether OOTP6 was released today, or April 15th.

Therein lies the biggest problem to me, and I'll say it in big letters too:

Any OOTP player who was expecting this game to be released near the beginning of April was being completely unrealistic.

Anyone who thought that to me is someone who hasn't been a computer gamer for that long. I've been playing computer games for over 15 years, and in that time I've seen more than my share of buggy releases, missed release dates, patches, features dropped, and so on. There is pretty much one rule which is always followed: a game's development nearly always takes longer than is expected or is planned for. This is why, for example, UT 2004 missed its Christmas release target, or why Half-Life 2 was delayed until sometime later this year.

Now, since ITP delayed the start on OOTP6, and more importantly, there was the overhaul of the statistical engine and all the new features added to the game, expecting it to have come out right around the start of the MLB season was obviously far too hopeful for anyone to have thought seriously.

Given all this, my hunch was that the game wouldn't be out until near the end of April, or perhaps in early May. Now that was a realistic expectation, and one I still believe.

If Markus is able to pull off a coup and beat that timeframe, I will be pleasantly surprised and suitably impressed. However, I'm sticking with my original estimate.

Remember Murphy's laws:

1) It's never as easy as it looks.
2) It always takes longer than you expect.
3) And if anything can go wrong, it will, at the worst possible moment.

[Ragnar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Slick
[B](personally, I think that H2H should have waited for V7 anyway because this year also features a complete engine overhaul, but that's just me).[QUOTE]

Personally I thought the new engine should have waited until V7 since they are putting H2H in this version. how's that sound?

[Johnny Slick]

I think it sounds like you are xxx. (edited by mod)

Seriously, from my vantage point, I think that a new engine, one that's based on the latest in baseball knowledge and that comes closer to the physics base of a Baseball Pro 98, has been needed for several iterations now. I am totally stoked that Markus has accepted this. H2H is big too, I agree (even though I'll probably never use it). A new engine is bigger.

[kserra]

As I'm reading this huge thread, I'm struck with a few thoughts...but mainly...

We are all assuming the game will be released today if we all tell Markus to do so...my guess is we are wrong...however that makes me sad...but let's keep this in mind (please prove me wrong Markus! See what I'm saying!!!)

Those who are waiting for H2H are probably a similar crowd who would love the financial coefficent and who were excited by the ability to include doubleheaders...

My feeling, again, this is just my feeling, is that the VAST majority of OOTPer's want the game as soon as possible, but probably won't use or even consider these three options (H2H, Fin. Co. Eff., Double Headers)....but consider them "neat" secondary features...

Just give us a game that improves on version 5, has a good AI, with the new features that enhance solo play well tested, and we will be very happy...

Those other factors just add to the immersive value of a game, but I don't see how including Doubleheaders is more important, for example, than an AI that can determine what kind of strategy it should take during Free Agency and the trade deadline...

Not sure if I'm stepping on some vet's toes, but quite honestly, I've been playing this game non-stop since version 2, and all I've wanted is for the GM AI to show some recognition of differing situations and react accordingly...YET, it seems we get more excited about hearing that the game will now include Double headers than the fact that the solo opponent will respond more intelligently according to the situation its team may be in...

Kevin--father of Riley

[raindelay7]

Like a lot of people out here i was really hoping OOTP6 was going to be released this weekend. I had it all planned out: house all to myself...monkey around with OOTP6 all weekend and then catch the sox game on sunday. Ok, not gonna happen the way I had hoped and I can deal with that (*whimper*) , but now that we know OOTP6 is not going to come out before opening day I am hoping Markus just takes his time, gets all the features in there and gets rid of as many bugs as possible before release.
And I have to believe that if a major feature of release is not even fully coded, then Markus probably hasn't had much time to work through basic debugging.

Markus, i think rushing to release without original features promised is just a horrible idea. Why set yourself (not to mention forum community) up for that mess? : "..where's head-to-head!? ...why didn't they wait till it was done!??...how do i get my money bACK!?"

ahh, but who knows...maybe that wouldn't happen - hope not anyway