It's the Last Friday In March!!!

[Henry]

Originally posted by jdbolick
Henry:
Yes it does now, but it was only changed recently. When I first received the newsletter earlier this month, I came to the OOTP website and OOTP5 was still the featured game. Within the last two days or so the info on OOTP5 has been dramatically reduced, perhaps in response to the thread criticizing that very thing.

The OOTP6 comments were added March 9th, two and a half weeks ago.

Dale And Eli's Dad:
I'm not manufacturing a release date. All previous OOTP games came out before the start of the baseball season, and this one hasn't only because of the preoccupation with ITP.

No past version of OOTP ever had a stated a release date. Using "past experience" to claim it's late this year simply isn't valid. Although I would agree expectations can be set by looking at past experience, OOTP never pre-stated a date for a release, then or now.

Most amusing, though, is your claim that I have a "lack of passion for the truth." I would be very surprised if at any time in your entire life you encountered anyone with a passion for truth even equal to my own, much less surpassing it. I am fanatical about pursuing the truth, and you have done nothing to show or even argue otherwise.

If this were entirely true, my corrections above wouldn't have been necessary

Henry

[Jason]

Mr. Bolick:

Well, with statements like 'I would be very surprised if at any time in your entire life you encountered anyone with a passion for truth even equal to my own, much less surpassing it. I am fanatical about pursuing the truth, and you have done nothing to show or even argue otherwise" what you lack in integrity you make up for in humility.

I find it interesting you accuse me of threats and misinterpretations when you are misrepresenting OOTP6 as being late when even by your own admission it's not late even by the "start of the baseball season" standard.

Let's talk copyright infringement. If you do not make any profit from the site you are correct. However, if you have an essay on your site that is picked up and published by a publication as a result of seeing it on your website, you have earned profit from the web site and all items connected to that site would fall under copyright rules at that point.

If this is your "hobby" and not something you intend as a career or as a source of additional income are you prepared to tell everyone that your writings are free to be copied and used without any recompensation or attribution to you?

It's become obvious that the only truth that matters to you is the truth you make up in your head. Know that in the future as you try to progress in life people will see through you eventually just as posters on this board see through you now.

You're here to cause people to view your new web site and think that by attacking OOTP Developments and making false accusations of a missed release date or deadline you'll earn respect. There is no "industry standard deadline" for games and even if you wanted to use the opening of the season as that deadline OOTP6 hasn't missed that deadline yet.

I know you won't admit that you are misleading people with your claims the game is late. If you made your post on April 7th without the game being available then I wouldn't have any issue with you. However, the baseball season has not started...therefore the game is not late....and you have continually refused to admit that truth.

If you're that passionate about truth then it's time to accept it.

[mh2365]

jd,

Okay so my dickweed argument isn't good (while valid all it does is insult) ... bottom line is that all you have done is insure that OOTP never offers a pre-pay discount again ... this argument wouldn't be happening if people had not spent money already .... the sad part is that you accuse everyone of not reading you "thoughts", yet you seem to think people are in agreement with you ... no one is ...

and you are wrong ... because this is such a quality game, this is a fan site .... constructive criticism is accepted here, Markus actually pays attention to it .... and while we are on it ... since you mention EA in 75% of you posts yet don't want to be associated with them, then please name one single text based game that has better coustomer service than this one ...

You want to come off as the smartest person ever to grace this board and you act like we are all idiots ... well maybe we act that way because we don't take you seriously .... I would imagine that you are not even in the top 50 % when it comes to IQ on this board ... not an insult but I am guessing that the average IQ of people who seek out this type of game is pretty high ....

So please excuse us if we don't bow to you supposed intelligence .... people of this board truly love this game and you came into our house and pissed all over the rug ..... yet you act surprised that we did not hug afterward ... I am quite simply amazed at your arrogance

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by mh2365
Jd, please go over to the front office football board and see how they feel about your beloved EA

Dang, that would be pretty stinkin' funny!

[mh2365]

I thought you would appreciate that skydog

[Ben E Lou]

This would be your friendly neighborhood moderator's reaction to such a thread:

[gmo]

Originally posted by jdbolick
...I still think there is something to be said for meeting certain standards. ... In my opinion they've made a mistake, and bad reviews are a consequence.

My feeling is that as small as OOTP is, it simply cannot meet all the standards it would be best to meet and do all the game-making it wants to do. I'm no businessman, so I don't know what could help that. Since I love the product OOTP and want the company to succeed, I have a good deal of patience for it,

Originally posted by jdbolick
Letting people know that a game will be late, explaining why, saying when it should be available, and asking for customer understanding would go a long way in mollifying any frustration.

It seems they have done all of these things, except for the last part, something like, "Sorry OOTP6 won't be out as early as OOTP5 last year, but please be patient as we ..." And I stand by my statement that I believe they did not feel they had to apologize for that. If the release was to be after when they have said it would be so far, then I'd think they'd apologize. Maybe I just feel that way because I don't feel they need to tell me they're sorry for what they are doing. I'd hope that most people would not hold them to a standard that would expect that, and I don't think most OOTP fans do. I really think that most people here do give OOTP quite a bit of leeway, even though they are antsy and frustrated, and that many do feel the game should be out by now, almost all will forgive/forget provided the release is not outside what has been said and that the product and follow-up support is good.

[jdbolick]

Henry:
Ah, my mistake. I mistakenly assumed from your comments that the page had changed. Seeing it I can see that OOTP5 remains the featured game. I never disputed that comments on OOTP6 were present, but as mentioned in the complaint thread below, OOTP5 is still the banner head. Whether or not there is an intent to fool people who didn't buy 5 into thinking that's this year's game, it's unprofessional not to have updated the page by now. My statements regarding the changing page were wrong, but I do make mistakes. Perfection is not required to seek the truth. In fact, my devotion to the truth is precisely why I have no problem admitting I'm wrong whenever I actually am.

Regarding the release, on the other hand, I am not claiming that you missed a stated release date. I'm saying that, unlike all previous versions of OOTP, this game is not expected to be out by Opening Day. To me it is late for that reason, and you've even admitted that the game was delayed because of work on ITP. I don't see how you can quibble about the difference between delayed and late. Look up one of the words in a thesaurus and the other will probably be listed as a synonym. Thus it is absolutely not a misrepresentation, it is a statement of fact. You, on the other hand, apparently have little consideration for truth when you can say something is "delayed" but not "late." I'm afraid I've got you there.


Dale And Eli's Dad:
#1) Perhaps you want to check Henry's own statement. Read "the release of ITP delayed OOTP to some time after the release date that would have been usually expected" and explain to me how that is different from "late."

#2) Actually you're incorrect about the application of copyright rules, but that isn't surprising since you're pulling this directly out of your @$$. In order for it to be copyright infringement, my site would either have to require payment to view, or else the graphics in question would have to be proven as the cause of sale. And as I told you already, the ones I have I got from public domain wallpapers, not the images of the companies themselves. There is still likeness and logo protection, but it's not subjected to the same standards as constructed images. Believe me, I've researched this already just to cover my bases.

#3) Heck no. If your hobby is collecting coins, do you then give permission for other people to take them? This is my intellectual property, however worthwhile or worthless. That's a pretty weak attempt at attacking me on your part. I guess you slipped up in forgetting that I long ago made the distinction between hobby and business. And you were so close to being clever.

#4) Check the recent posts, chief. After initial confrontation quite a few of the people still posting either agree with what I'm saying or disagree but recognize that I'm making valid points. If there was something to "see through," surely those individuals would be able to address and undermine my points. As of yet no one has been able to.

#5) Dude, my web site has been around for years. I created it after leaving Mastersball, and that was a long time ago. Moreover, I didn't mention the link, and if I were here to advertise it, don't you think I would have finished it first? And your other claim doesn't make any sense either. Why would coming on here to complain about a game earn me "respect"? I suspected it would give me trouble, but I still wanted to express my frustration in the hope that the OOTP staff won't subject us to similar delays in the future. Heh, come on, at least think before you post.

[chrisj]

Originally posted by Henry

The "ootp5.com" page is exactly that - a page for version 5. Historically, OOTP Developments has published the new version page on release day - and that is what will happen this year as well.

Who is Soeren Wiechert?? I get the feeling there may not be an ootp6.com...

[mh2365]

jd,

a poll is calling your name

[chrisj]

Originally posted by jdbolick
Regarding the release, on the other hand, I am not claiming that you missed a stated release date. I'm saying that, unlike all previous versions of OOTP, this game is not expected to be out by Opening Day. To me it is late for that reason, and you've even admitted that the game was delayed because of work on ITP.

- I haven't been around for all of OOTPs history, but I thought people had mentioned the first couple of OOTPs didn't come out during spring training? Perhaps someone who has been around longer could confirm...

- If you say something will be done by a certain date, and it isn't, it's late. If people expect something will be done by a certain date, and it isn't, then no, it's not late. You're the one who had the expectation, not the company.

[Jason]

Perhaps you want to check Henry's own statement. Read "the release of ITP delayed OOTP to some time after the release date that would have been usually expected" and explain to me how that is different from "late."

OK, let's follow your logic:

A company known for their widgets usually releases a new model of widget on March 1.

They proceed to have five upgrades of that widget all releasing around March 1 of each year.

In the sixth year, the company announces that the upgraded widget will be available around April 1.

Under your logic, the widget is late on March 2 because the previous widgets were released on March 1 previous years. The fact the company set a release date of April 1 is irrelevant to you because you decided the company should release their widget on the same date each year.

That is what's happening here. Version 6 of their product is going to be available "around opening day." This is later than the release date in previous years but is consistent with the announced date for this product.

You said this: "I'm saying that, unlike all previous versions of OOTP, this game is not expected to be out by Opening Day." Please show me documented proof this statement of yours is true.

[Jack Bauer]

Ya know JD this has been just so much fun but it really boils down to this:

All this BS you are blowing around (well 95% of it I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) is YOUR ideas...................VERY little fact at all. It's what YOU want or THINK.

The developers HAVE stated that the game will be late, and why....I know that's not good enough for you so if you bend over we can have one stop by to kiss your *** which "I guess" is what you're after. Since you just keep moaning about the same old crap.

You've blown your wad, the game's NOT coming out any earlier because of it so why not call it a night?

[TC Dale]

Can we kick his *** instead of kissing it instead?

[Mike D]

Ok, I promised myself I would stay flame free for the day, and I'm going to try.

JD, you keep saying that your not comparing OOTP developments to EA, but in your previous arguements, that was the only software company you kept citing. Fine by me, let's go with that for a second. The PGA tour season starts when? Jan, I believe. And EA has their Golf Game come out when? September of that year? I know that it says 2004 on the box, but fire it up and play a season and tell me what year you start on? 2003. So, that game is "late" by 9 months. Their title NASCAR 2004 came out in September of this year. The NASCAR season starts in Feb. That game is "late" by 8 months. So, please, if you want to keep bringing up EA as an arguement, go with all their titles, not the ones that fit into your arguement.

Next, if OOTP6 comes out before the 15th of April, it will beat to Release the following baseball titles: ESPN Baseball, All-Star baseball, MLB Slugfest, and MLB Inside Pitch. All of those are made by companies that sport more than one coder.

Now, if you want to compare OOTP to other small developers, than you need to look at titles that have already been pointed out to you, like EHM, TPF, FOF, TPB, Total Pro Baseball, and TDCB. All those games are in the same small developer league, and none of those made it out before the start of their respective seasons.

While it isn't unreasonable to hope that a Baseball game is out before Baseball season, you cannot expect the game to be released when you want it to be. If the game isn't done, I hope they take their time to get it right, and they are free to have my $25.95 for as long as it takes to get it done. I'm sorry that the game being out on time hasn't lived up to your expectations, but I do hope that if you get/are married, that when you have a kid, the kid makes it out before the delivery date, or else their could be trouble somewhere in the US.

[Andy]

Looks flame free to me Mike D, nice post.....

[AnotherAlias]

wtf? Are there any cliff notes? This thread seems a little long. The game is coming out soon, I venture, so a little patience is in order.

[glanville4mvp]

I'll add 2 more cents to this topic (bring my total to 4 cents)...

With the exception of MVP Baseball, I cannot think of another baseball game that has been released yet for this baseball season. Trust me, I know there must be some I am forgetting. But what I'm saying is that not every baseball title is released before the season starts, therefore it is not the "industry standard". But, I realize that this doesn't matter to you because those companies have not previously released their product before the season started in past years.

I'm going to try to summarize your logic regarding the past practices of OOTP in a different example... I usually have a poker tournament on Thursday nights at 8:00, I've had my friends over for this tournament several times. However, next Thursday I will be very busy and have to push the tournament back to 9:00 so I tell all of my friends about that. According to your logic, I am failing my duties as a host because I did not take care of my duties ahead of time which forced my poker tournament's time to be pushed back. Okay, now I know you will say that this doesn't quite apply because the OOTP situation is much more serious because people have money invested into it. But I still think that the example points out some of the silliness of your claims.

By the way, you are looking at the wrong webpage when you keep saying it is not updated. If you go to the official OOTP Developments page (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/), it does not mention anything about OOTP 5. I'm not exactly sure what page you are looking at but the official page doesn't mention OOTP 5. However, that is a reasonable complaint to have about whatever page you are looking at. I'm sure it will be addressed once the game is ready to sold to the public since they aren't going to advertise this unfinished product and OOTP 5 is actually the latest release of the game at this current time.

This thread is becoming very repetitive so I'm just going to go back to anticipating the release and planning out what I'm going to do in my first season. I don't know what truth you seek, JD, because the truth is that the game is to be released around Opening Day unlike previous releases of the product which were released earlier. That's the truth.

[jdbolick]

mh2365:
In some of the threads those complaining specifically state that they haven't bought the game yet, so your assumption is faulty.

Regarding agreement:

Originally posted by gmo
Such criticism is fair, more and more so the later a game comes out.

Originally posted by MidnightPyro
jdbolick,
I agree with you there.

Originally posted by mlyons
JD, I think I understand your main point -- that OOTPdev needs to tighten up as a company if it wants to grow into a major factor in the software industry. I actually agree with you about this in a number of ways,

There are a few people actually attempting to understand what I'm saying, and a couple who agree with some or most of what I'm saying. Meanwhile you're not even disagreeing, because disagreement requires an opposing argument. You're just insulting me, which is boring because you're not even doing that well. Also, nice job not admitting your mistake in calling this a fan site. You really fooled everyone with your explanation.

Regarding text based games, I assume you mean sports games, otherwise I could name quite a few. I've never had much contact with customer support with text-based games, though, as my only problems have been with licensing, and in that case I just used this website's online FAQ. I'm certainly willing to give the OOTP staff credit for implementing customer suggestions, but other text-based sports games have been willing to do the same. My problems with their "customer service" have only to do with the presentation on the website, the lack of information, and the indifference to customer concerns about the delay.

As for my IQ, either you can refute my points or you can't. I'm not interested in pulling down my pants and comparing sizes. I don't care whether or not you think others are smarter than I am, I'm only concerned with making and defending my points. And while we're at it, don't play the victim. Judging by the threads, numerous people have complained about the delay and people such as yourself apparently find self-validation by attacking them without reason or justification.


gmo:
It had no problem meeting those standards in the past. I can understand the desire to pursue new ventures, as I often abandon past projects in favor of new ones, but when you're selling a product I don't think you should add a new one if it will negatively affect another. And I really don't see how you say they're doing those things I mentioned. The staff steadfastly refuses to admit that the game is late, they don't want to acknowledge why, they haven't given us anything more than a very vague window when it might be available, and they have been aloof or even combative towards customer frustration. I'll grant you that most here are not only giving them the benefit of the doubt but surgically attaching lips. There have been those who complained, however, and they've been openly attacked. When that happens, of course those remaining will either be openly supportive or keep any frustration quiet. You have to be masochistic to subject yourself to that kind of treatment, and I'd be surprised if I had any desire to do so after tonight.


chrisj:
I refer you to Henry's own statement: "the release of ITP delayed OOTP to some time after the release date that would have been usually expected." By all means, explain to me why my thesaurus is wrong, and "delayed" is not synonymous with "late."


Dale And Eli's Dad:
Very weak attempt at logic. If you're this bad at arguing, you should just give up. You keep making mistakes I've already addressed. In my earliest posts I mentioned that generic themed games can come out whenever they want, they aren't tied to any specific date. Converting your analogy to something appropriate would mean talking about a special widget used a certain time of year. Moreover, you rather conspicuously avoided explaining to me how "delayed" is different from "late." You seem to have an endless desire to be combative, so by all means, explain away.


Jack Bauer:
Actually you're mistaken. I not only know people in the game industry and have written about it, but I've read far more. There are expectations, and for sports games, one of those is to have the game released by the time the respective season starts. Not meeting that deadline isn't the end of the world, but it certainly is a negative. That's not my opinion, it's a fact of the market, and its evidenced by OOTP's own actions. Not only have they met that deadline in the past, but they mention that they tried to do it this time as well.

The developers HAVE stated that the game will be late

Cool, thanks for admitting that. For the record, though, the main reason I'm continuing to hammer this point is that I didn't like the way you guys treated other people who complained. I believe in what I'm saying, and I think it's bogus for some of you to blast people making legitimate points just because you don't like what they're saying. None of you intimidate me in the slightest, so I felt confident that I could not only take all the mud you had to sling, but that I could make points you couldn't refute.


Mike D:
You came in and made some quality points. I appreciate that. Addressing Tiger Woods and Nascar, unlike baseball those seasons are essentially year-round, but you correctly pointed out that Sega's baseball game won't be out by the start of the season. I wasn't aware of the date, but apparently it isn't scheduled for release until April 13th. To be fair I'll make a special point to criticize their slow delivery. That being said, do you think that customers are frustrated about the game being released nearly a month after MVP Baseball? Do you think it will negatively affect sales? I suspect that the answer to both questions are "yes." I've said several times in this thread that games do come out late and while it is undeniably a negative, it doesn't mean the game and company will completely fail. Like I keep saying, even Henry has unwittingly admitted that the game would have been out by now, but ITP interfered with the start of work on OOTP. The late release date definitely frustrates me, but I've never asked anyone who is ok with that to change their mind. I'm not trying to stir up anyone. I'm lodging my complaint, defending the validity of my complaint, and defending the rights of others to complain. In addition to hoping that future editions of OOTP come out before the season as previous ones have, I hope that me standing up to all this abuse on here makes some of you take notice of the trolls in your midst who enjoy taking opportunities to blast people voicing legitimate complaints. If you actually care about OOTP, step in and stop those trolls from driving away potential customers. If players with problems can't be comfortable posting their concerns on the game's official website, they're likely to give up the game altogether.


glanville4mvp:
OOTP5 is still the banner head and featured game on the Out of the Park Baseball page. That's the page you get when you click on the "Out of the Park Baseball" tab on the main page.

[chrisj]

Originally posted by jdbolick
chrisj:
I refer you to Henry's own statement: "the release of ITP delayed OOTP to some time after the release date that would have been usually expected." By all means, explain to me why my thesaurus is wrong, and "delayed" is not synonymous with "late."

Of course. I'm sure Markus would have loved to have had the game out now... but he never said it would be out now. Who knows, maybe because of all the major changes Markus planned a June release and the game will actually be early? We don't know... because there was never a release date published.

That being said, do you think that customers are frustrated about the game being released nearly a month after MVP Baseball? Do you think it will negatively affect sales? I suspect that the answer to both questions are "yes." I've said several times in this thread that games do come out late and while it is undeniably a negative, it doesn't mean the game and company will completely fail.

Of course it well - there are other options for graphic based baseball games. Currently, the only other option in the text sim market is Puresim/Total Pro. Puresim was released last year, and Total Pro won't be out until... well... no one really knows, maybe not until next year.