It's the Last Friday In March!!!

[Jack Bauer]

Originally posted by MidnightPyro
I think we're all just anxious for the game to come out. Everyone wants the game to come out, and everyone is looking forward to the game. People are attempting to flame OOTP for the game not coming out. I highly doubt this will help anything happen...but maybe something like an open beta test from OOTP's side? An early release of the game, with the understanding that it'll have bugs, but it'll allow those of us that want to play it quick and have the bugs our chance, while the people that want to hold off until the "official" bug-free release their chance to wait.
Why would something like this not work?

Try 400 series TPBaseball, this has been talked about before here and is not how they want to do things in the OOTP realm.

[Jason]

Mr. "Bolick":

If you are really a professional writer and critic of software and games, please be kind enough to inform us of the webzine or publication for whom you will be writing a review of OOTP6.

I believe that web site's editor (unless it's you or someone close to you) would be very interested to know that you have posted in a public place your intention to slander a company and a product based on false information.

Out of the Park Developments NEVER said the game would be out at the time you posted your initial comments. The statement was the game would be released AROUND Opening Day which has not happened yet.

The truth: Opening Day has not yet occurred.
The truth: OOTP Developments said the game would be released AROUND that date.
Therefore: OOTP Developments has not failed to meet any deadlines.

If you are really a writer and not someone just trying to stir up trouble because you like the attention then you seem to be willing to sacrifice your integrity and that of any publication you are associated with for your own personal ends. That disgraces the professional writing profession and puts you in the same category as Jayson Blair.

Again, please provide for us the facts...who you write for and the editor who assigned you a review of OOTP 6...and we'll be happy to take your comments seriously. We all also send a copy of this thread to that editor and publication so they know your intention to mislead their readers regarding the company producing this game.

[gmo]

Originally posted by jdbolick
I'll only mention how I enjoyed previous incarnations of OOTP, how this one failed to meet basic standards regarding its release, the very poor customer relations, and the excuses for why it's late.

I can't recall another game where the developers seemed so cavalier about the frustration of their customers. The game should be out already, we know that it isn't because the developers put off working on OOTP longer than they usually do to work on another project instead, and those developers seem to resent the fact that customers are troubled by the product's late and as yet uncertain release date. There's no question that previous OOTP games have been good, but that attitude is particularly worrisome. At least when developers are apologetic, you can be more understanding and have some reasonable assurance that it won't happen again barring exceptional circumstances.

I think the attitude of OOTP and its relationship with its customers is being described much worse than it actually is. However, I think I can see where someone new to the game, still seeing OOTP5 on a web page, seeing on the boards that the game is not coming out possibly until during the season at a non-predetermined date might get a negative impression.

Some people ... won't leave OOTP no matter how late the games are. Other people will, and there is no doubt that late releases negatively affect the attraction of new customers.

As has been stated, a post-opening day release would be a first for OOTP, so this cannot be described a the company MO. If they always did this I think that would be undoubtedly bad for business, but suppose this is a one time thing. I really don't think many OOTP regulars will leave the game. As far as potential new customers... If just presented with a list of games where OOTP is the only one not out, that will hurt OOTP. But based on what little I know about how this game has grown (like from the recent threads about how people got into it), I don't think the game not being out in March will hurt its growth that much. It may among casual players/fans, but I don't think OOTP is targeting that demographic so much. Whether that is a bad choice is debatable.

[jdbolick]

mh2365:
Some people are actually demonstrating at least a limited ability to understand what I'm saying. Others, unfortunately like yourself, seize upon a word at the expense of comprehension. I have already explained repeatedly that you can take the name EA out of my example and substitute any major company you wish. The point is not the specific company, but that if OOTP had a large following it would be soundly criticized in print and online for being late.

And please spare me the insults. What do you think they're going to accomplish? No one who agrees with your position will read that and say, "He called that guy a dickweed! Heh, heh. mh2365 is so cool." Obviously you're not upsetting me with your generic barbs, so what is it supposed to accomplish? Some people argue that insults are evidence of an insufficient argument. I disagree, because I've been known to be one of the most vicious flame-artists some people have ever seen, and when I insult people, it's generally because I'm so angry that I no longer care about persuading them to understand my point of view, I just want to make them feel so worthless that they get out of my way and stop irritating me with their continued presence. As of yet I haven't reached that degree of anger, and I'd try to suppress it even if I had, because ranting and cursing would only make it that much easier for people like you to pretend that I didn't make points you couldn't counter.

And while we're at it, bub, this is not a fan site, it's the official forums linked from the game's official website. This is the place where complaints are supposed to be lodged, and theoretically where they're supposed to be taken seriously. The fact that people like you choose to inhabit this place and make it your business to hoover is irrelevant. If I didn't already know that OOTP is generally a quality game, I wouldn't care whether it's late or not, and I obviously wouldn't have pre-ordered it. Nor am I trying to convince people who aren't bothered by the delay that they should be. I don't really care whether or not you're bothered. People are accusing me of being arrogant, but people like you are the ones presumptuous enough to think that I give so much value to your thoughts or opinions that I want you to follow me. I came on here because I am frustrated as a customer, and I want the OOTP development staff to improve their performance. My subsequent posts have only come because I'm annoyingly stubborn when it comes to defending the merits of my arguments. Whether or not you ever acknowledge it, because I have made so many points and given so many justifications, you'll know that I'm right no matter how much you end up trying to deny it.

And don't say that no one here gets ripped for constructive criticism. That's just too much of a lie for you to look anything but silly. Even the people on your side wouldn't agree with that fish story.


Jack Bauer:
Last I checked, this was me "dealing with it." And while I don't "know it all," you certainly haven't found the energy to rebut my arguments.

[treedom]

Originally posted by Dale And Eli's Dad
If you are really a professional writer and critic of software and games, please be kind enough to inform us of the webzine or publication for whom you will be writing a review of OOTP6.

http://www.publicleagues.com/

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by treedom
http://www.publicleagues.com/

Look out, OOTP!!!! A bad review from a distinguished site like that, might really hurt sales!!!!!!!

[treedom]

...and then it hit me...this whole thing was a clever marketing ploy...

[TC Dale]

Stranger things have happened before. And probably continue as well. He can use the money to pay for his website and a bulletin board.

If you want to allow "equal" footing for your fans and your haters, you have to give them equal access public and private. That is how I see it.

[jdbolick]

Christ, you people come out of the woodwork faster than I can reply. I guess I'll have to start shortening my individual responses.


Maria Nieves:
#1) For hopefully the last time: I AM NOT COMPARING OOTP TO EA! I just used EA for an example of how OOTP gets a bit of a pass by being small, but if they hope to get bigger, they'll face additional criticism unless they keep this from happening again. Christ, that doesn't seem like it would be that hard to understand, but I think only two people have actually gotten it.

#2) If OOTP is not interested in meeting the industry standard deadline, why did it always do so before this year? They've all but admitted that OOTP6 would have been released by now if they hadn't delayed their start to work on ITP.

#3) There are obviously more than a few people pissed about the late release date, hence the numerous threads on the topic. Some of them are taking it well, but there have been quite a few who didn't and have been driven off by the vitriolic responses to their criticism. As I said before, that kind of behavior decreases OOTP's market share and eventually might threaten its existence. If you really care about the game, you shouldn't be pissing off its potential customers.

#4) Markus apparently listens to ideas, but he is not listening to concerns about the release date. If he did he would apologize for letting ITP delay OOTP, and would give some indication that he would do everything possible not to let it happen again.

#5) Of course OOTP's fan base at the All-Star break won't care, because those are the people who stuck around to get the game, but you're completely ignoring those potential customers who were driven off. They won't be buying the game and therefore won't be playing or even thinking about the OOTP6 at the All-Star break.


MidnightPyro:
I agree with Jack that what you suggest doesn't work very well, but I don't agree that we're just flaming OOTP or that criticism won't help. Obviously from these threads, some people who would have bought OOTP6 have either decided not to or are thinking about it, and the development staff needs to understand and react to these feelings if they care at all about expanding their base. Maybe they don't, but I'd be surprised if that were the case.


LeeHoFooks:
Jesus almighty, read Maria's point #1. And for those who know what I'm talking about, I played MUDs for years and yet can't stand MMORPGs. Clearly graphics are not everything to me.


Jack Bauer:
I've already played over forty games in MVP Baseball and I haven't seen any critical flaws. To me it seems like a great action game with decent but simplistic managerial elements and only a few annoying aspects. I get frustrated that outfielders dive and catch everything in their vicinity, but overall it's a high quality product. It's definitely something different from OOTP, and the minor league system is a bit of a joke, but at least they're moving in a direction that appeals to me. You'd also be better off not calling the game a "mess," as it tends to cost you whatever credibility you had left. MVP Baseball has been widely praised by all the critics I know or have read.



Dale And Eli's Dad:
I know the meaning of slander, apparently better than you. Slander means to say something blatantly untrue out of malice with the intent to hurt the reputation of the individual in question. I don't plan on saying anything untrue, and for the record, it's "libel" when written. I intend to criticize OOTP6 for being late, the OOTP staff for ignoring customer complaints, and explain what events led to the game's delay. My video game reviews are strictly freelance and don't appear in any magazines, but occasionally get picked up by local newspapers. They're also on various websites, but none are contractual and therefore I doubt anyone would want to pick up a paragraph of my opinion on OOTP6 unless I tack it onto a real review of something else. As for the Jayson Blair comment, please explain what I'm making up. You apparently don't have much exposure to journalism if you don't know that columnists actually do criticize products on occasion.



gmo:
Actually I think you have it backwards. If OOTP was always late, I doubt there would be as much frustration about it being late again. The fact that this is the first time and that it was due to preoccupation with another game makes it worse, at least to those familiar with the company. Those who have never been exposed to the series before probably wouldn't care whether this was the first time or whether it was a pattern of behavior. As I've pointed out, I have bought previous OOTP games, as have other people who complained about the late release date and were flamed on these forums. There are customers familiar with the series who are being lost, not only by the development failure, but by the behavior of the people on this message board.


treedom:
Yep, that's my fantasy sports website. My personal website is also listed in my profile, although I'd bet that next to no one actually thought to even look there. Both underwent recent redesigns, so large sections are missing. That undoubtedly will provide fodder for militant sheep, but I have been in nationally distributed fantasy sports magazines and had reviews in local newspapers. I still have to do most of my work freelance, but I'm proud of what I've been able to accomplish, and I'm only 26.

[Jonzard]

HOLY COW!!!! this has been a ton of posts in one day, for one THREAD!

[chrisj]

Originally posted by jdbolick
[B]#2) If OOTP is not interested in meeting the industry standard deadline, why did it always do so before this year? They've all but admitted that OOTP6 would have been released by now if they hadn't delayed their start to work on ITP.

Actually, I wouldn't compare one-developer text sims to the rest of the industry. In fact, I'd say most games in the text sim industry have come out past the season start. FOF, TPF, hell it looks like EHM will be coming out as the Stanley Cup is awarded. Has OOTP come out prior to the start of the season before? Yes, it has. But it doesn't mean it always has to.

[jdbolick]

I realize the thread is long, but part of that is due to people responding without actually reading what I have said. Where, pray tell, did I say that OOTP "had to" be released before Opening Day? We've already addressed the fact that some games, especially ones from very small companies, don't make the deadline. We've also established that the deadline still exists and that not meeting it is a negative. In addition we've established that almost if not all companies at least attempt to make said deadline because they recognize its importance. As I said quite a while ago, companies acknowledge the deadline when they meet it and only pretend it doesn't exist when they can't. OOTP released games by now in previous years, and would have done so again if they hadn't pushed back their start to work on ITP.

[MidnightPyro]

jdbolick,
I agree with you there. What I was trying to get at, is I doubt that people complaining and whining is going to make OOTP come out any faster. If we get everyone to rebel tonight, does that mean Markus is going to cave in and release the game? Not nescesarly. I'm pulling for a release sometime during my spring break though, considering I'll be somewhat unhappy if it comes out on April 4th (last day of spring break )

The thing that I disagree with right now is OOTP Development's stance on telling us what exactly is going on. Right now, we know it's in testing. That's about it. I know we're still shooting for Opening Day, but the natives are getting restless. I love the game, and right now, this is the game I'm most excited about, considering it will provide hours of enjoyment, and hopefully these hours will come during my week of Spring Break. It would be nice if they could give us some sort of date, considering it's getting really really close now. Not a specfic date, but say a release is expected around March 27-30 or something similiar, considering thats what everyone seems to want. If not, then I'd be happy with more screenshots.
But I can understand not commiting to a date, just it seems like this is what people are upset about.

So, how about throwing the dogs a bone here and giving us something to drool over?

[mlyons]

JD, I think I understand your main point -- that OOTPdev needs to tighten up as a company if it wants to grow into a major factor in the software industry. I actually agree with you about this in a number of ways, and am somewhat concerned about the long term future of this company, because I want to see it continue to produce a game I've probably enjoyed more than any other game series I've ever played (it's a fairly close race with Civilization). I'm actually slightly ashamed to admit it, but I even purchased ITP (even though it didn't sound terrifically appealing to me) in an attempt to contribute in some small part to the company's financial well-being.

One point you miss, however, is that OOTPdev is not a major factor in the software industry yet, nor is it even plain that they ever want to be. Because they are not at the level of the major software companies, it strikes me as inherently unfair for you to try to hold them to the larger companies' standards. You can wish that they would do so, and even suggest that they do so, but to write a bad review of them for not conforming to industry standards when I'm not sure that they even qualify as "industry" seems about as unfair as criticizing their lack of an advertising campaign.

I'm not criticizing your opinions here; I agree with some of them and disagree with others. What I am criticizing is what seems to be a threat to write a bad review of OOTP6 based on release dates and customer service rather than the quality of the game itself. It's a very small company; the game is all there is. Any review of it should include that information as a caveat, but it really shouldn't be the primary focus of the review.

[rahvin]

Originally posted by jdbolick
dangarion:
I've never played TPB, but I know that BM 2004 is out and has been for a while now. I suspect that any delay of TPB is related to the .400-Sullivan merger.

2004 was last year's edition of BM. This year's version has not come out yet either.

[gmo]

Originally posted by jdbolick
Actually I think you have it backwards. If OOTP was always late, I doubt there would be as much frustration about it being late again. The fact that this is the first time and that it was due to preoccupation with another game makes it worse, at least to those familiar with the company. Those who have never been exposed to the series before probably wouldn't care whether this was the first time or whether it was a pattern of behavior. As I've pointed out, I have bought previous OOTP games, as have other people who complained about the late release date and were flamed on these forums. There are customers familiar with the series who are being lost, not only by the development failure, but by the behavior of the people on this message board.

I am curious as to why the apparent belief that significant numbers of people into OOTP are being driven off by the release date not being definitely and clearly before opening day this one year. Is the issue primarily the response on the boards by average folks and/or OOTP? I have seen angry posts here saying people are through with the game because they did not feel their complaints regarding bugs or some features not being in the game or working the "correct" way were addressed as they should have been. I don't like it, but I think that just happens and not much can be done about it given the nature of boards like this. Some people will be drawn to OOTP more by the boards, some will be repelled, but I believe the former exceeds the latter in the long run in spite of how annoying a lot of what goes on here is.

People will get upset over many things regarding the game like features, release dates, the nature of the boards, and some will be driven off from the game. But I think the quality of the game will keep many more around and draw more in. Obviously losing any customers is not positive, but what should be done to keep from repelling people? Though they surely would like to have the game out at this point, I figure Markus & Co. did not believe they were doing anything so wrong they needed to apologize for it, that simply stating the facts on the release was enough.

[Henry]

Just for the record (concerning the OOTP website), the Home Page (ootpdevelopments.com) very clearly announces the soon to be released Version 6....



The "ootp5.com" page is exactly that - a page for version 5. Historically, OOTP Developments has published the new version page on release day - and that is what will happen this year as well.

Henry

[Jason]

Mr. Bolick:

In your statement "Slander means to say something blatantly untrue out of malice with the intent to hurt the reputation of the individual in question. I don't plan on saying anything untrue, and for the record, it's "libel" when written" you are correct in that it is libel.

However, you stated you would be writing the game was late and you are manufacturing a release date to claim it was late. This is false and would fall under the definition of libel if you were published in a reputable publication.

I visited your personal website (www.jdbolick.com) and have a few comments.

First, you state at the bottom "Design and Content (C) 2004 JD Bolick." On the "links" page the header is a photo of "Xenosaga" which is trademarked by the Namco corporation without your attributing this image, logo or name to them.

On the "Other Works" page you have a graphic of the logo of "Vagrant Story" without any attribution to Electronic Arts.

There is also no attribution to the photos in the main page's header or the header of the "Archives" page...does this mean you are responsible for the origination of those graphics? If not, your failure to credit their originators is as much a violation of copyright laws as the above two mentioned items where the owners of those copyrights was easily found through a Google search.

Broken links on the "other works" page could be linked back to that same main page so it doesn't result in broken links. Although you did get the web site open to the public on the date you wanted to get the site open and I guess that's better than a complete product.

The links on the header of the www.publicleagues.com page are broken except for the "Fantasy Baseball" link which is your main page.

Are we safe in assuming that you'll be releasing your team capsules, projections and player rankings in time for most people to use for their roto drafts this year? I know many leagues are already finished with their drafts since the start of the season is days away. Does this mean you cannot be relied on to provide a quality product on time? If we hold you to the same deadline you're setting for OOTP then you're late with your work too. Most projection sites had their products available weeks ago.

I also would like you to know that I am contacting www.mastersball.com to find out if you were accurate in your claim that you were dumped from their site because of "my constant complaining about having written a number of articles and yet never being able to find Jason so he could upload them. " I'll make sure to post that response for everyone on this board when it arrives.

I am very aware columnists write opinions in their columns. In a sense, it's good you admit your bias and lack of passion for the truth up front. Please also understand that professional writers take issue with columnists who use slanted material and misinformation in their columns to make a point.

[Andy]

Hasn't this guy received his refund yet?

[jdbolick]

MidnightPyro:
That's cool, but I'm not hoping for Markus to just release the game untested. My hope is that he continues making quality games, but will concentrate harder on releasing future versions of OOTP in March. This one is already down, either because it's later than previous incarnations or because it was released with bugs. I agree with everyone that it's better to wait and release the tested version, but that still doesn't mean they should be immune from criticism for letting other games keep them from getting this one out on time. Obviously either option would also be better than no game at all.


mlyons:
I'm operating on a couple of assumptions. I've made the point that OOTP is not "big" yet, but I'm assuming that the staff will need to make it "big," at least financially, or they'll eventually burn out and quit. I've seen it happen to friends in the video game industry and friends in the writing business. In the case that they continue indefinitely even without making it big, I still think there is something to be said for meeting certain standards. You don't have to, just like some companies regularly turn out buggy games and yet survive, but it's better to meet as many as possible as often as possible. Whatever review I write, whether or not anyone picks it up, will just be a reflection of my own feelings, not an attempt to drive business away from OOTP. In my opinion they've made a mistake, and bad reviews are a consequence.


rahvin:
Oh, I obviously wasn't aware of that. Thanks for pointing that out. On their website I don't even see a 2005 version being mentioned anywhere.


gmo:
Communication is the key to any marriage. Letting people know that a game will be late, explaining why, saying when it should be available, and asking for customer understanding would go a long way in mollifying any frustration. Keeping overzealous posters under control would help too. I mentioned my disdain for message boards, but in the experience I did have with them, in-house trolls could be kept in line best by other regulars. As for apologizing, I really don't believe you there. I would find it very hard to believe that they aren't aware that they caused OOTP6 to be later than it should have been, and even if so, anytime you're running a business you respond to customer complaints. If customers are frustrated with a later release date, whether you think their complaints are justified or not, you're better off responding to them than ignoring them. But like I said, I have a hard time believing that they and even all the posters here don't know on some level that the game is late. There's just understandable disagreement as to how annoying or serious that problem is.


Henry:
Yes it does now, but it was only changed recently. When I first received the newsletter earlier this month, I came to the OOTP website and OOTP5 was still the featured game. Within the last two days or so the info on OOTP5 has been dramatically reduced, perhaps in response to the thread criticizing that very thing.


Dale And Eli's Dad:
I'm not manufacturing a release date. All previous OOTP games came out before the start of the baseball season, and this one hasn't only because of the preoccupation with ITP. As for my website, the content is mine, the graphics aren't. A couple of the graphics were made for me by those with some talent in that area, as I have none, and the rest were public domain, generally cropped from wallpapers. Even if I had used images directly from the companies, there would be no copyright violation as I am not using those images for profit. I don't charge for or sell anything on my website. Sometimes the companies don't want you using their images anyway, but I haven't had any problems so far.

As for the broken links, there are a ton of them. I give you some credit for cleverness, but long ago in this thread I made the distinction between business and hobbies. My website is a hobby that occasionally features articles I write professionally, although most of the people I've worked with are touchy about having purchased content available for free, even long after the publication. I use it to learn web design, to have some available examples of my writing, and to express some of the things no one is interested in paying me for. I did want to get my projections and other pieces up in time for the start of the season, but seeing as how this is just a hobby and I had other interests as well, it doesn't look like I'll be getting around to it in time. My professional work, in contrast, hasn't been incomplete or missed a deadline yet.

Most amusing, though, is your claim that I have a "lack of passion for the truth." I would be very surprised if at any time in your entire life you encountered anyone with a passion for truth even equal to my own, much less surpassing it. I am fanatical about pursuing the truth, and you have done nothing to show or even argue otherwise. The only thing you're trying to do is bully me into silence, but I'm very hard to intimidate. Try taking a lesson from the last few posters in this thread and see how reasonable dialogue works better than veiled threats and misrepresentations.