Depth Charts?

[thomamon]

OK,

Anyone an expert on depth charts?

Here is my situation... I have 4 Outfielders. 3 are starters in the field, one is DH... If I put my DH as a utility behind any of the OF's, will it put him in there if that player is tired and put someone else in as the DH?

Thanks,

TM

[Draft Dodger]

in my experience, no - if a guy is listed as a starter at one position, he wont see action at the position he's a backup for.

[elibangkok]

Only on days when he is not DH ing.

I believe what you can do is have him as the backup DH, but playing 90% of the time and then also as the backup OF. I think playing in place of a tired starter will take precedence over DH'ing in that case.

[thomamon]

Now that's an idea, I'll try that and see what happens. This way he will DH Mostly, but hopefully fill in as well at the other spots.

TM

[Draft Dodger]

The way Eli is describing it is the way it should work. I just don't think in actuality it does work out that way.

lots and lots of debate on depth charts over the last couple of years - I don't think anyone 100% understands exactly how they work. There's even a decent level of disagreement over how Markus actually intended for them to work.

[dougk62]

I probably shouldn't say anything, since I'm not sure, but I thought somewhere when Markus made the last round of changes to the depth charts it was stated that setting a sub percentage to over 50% would not work and could really mess things up quite a bit. Maybe someone else remembers this discussion.

[Kurtis R.]

Originally posted by dougk62
I probably shouldn't say anything, since I'm not sure, but I thought somewhere when Markus made the last round of changes to the depth charts it was stated that setting a sub percentage to over 50% would not work and could really mess things up quite a bit. Maybe someone else remembers this discussion.

This is correct. The depth charts were not intended to work that way. They are intended to work with values less than or equal to 50%.

I'm sure if you do a search.. you will find a lengthy discussion on depth charts.. actually.. I think there were a couple arguments in there too.

Kurtis

[Kurtis R.]

This might help some of you on depth charts. What 0% depth charts do. These tests were done long long ago in early OOTP5 beta testing if I remember right.

Ok.. I have done a couple tests to see what exactly 0% in the depth charts does.

Test #1
1. Had starting SS with no backup.
2. Played him until he was tired
3. Inserted Backup player in depth chart at 0%.
4. Simmed.

Results and conclustion: Backup player will start EVERYTIME the position player is tired. I tried this with multiple positions.. and it worked for them all every single time.

Test #2
1. All starting position had NO backup
2. Simmed until ALL position players were tired.
3. Inserted the SAME backup player in EACH position at 0%.
4. Simmed 1 day at a time and REMOVED the backup from each position as the starter became NOT TIRED

Position that the backup player played on a day by day basis:
SS
SS
LF
CF
CF
CF
CF
1B
1B
1B
1B
1B
DH
DH
DH
3B
3B
3B
2B
2B
C
C
C
RF
RF
RF
RF

Conclusion on test #2: The backup player will keep replacing the tired starter UNTIL the starter is rested.

I did this exact same test 2 times in a row... and got the EXACT same results. Is there an order that the backups will take if they backup more than one position?? More on that later

Test #3 **Same as #2 with slight change**
1. All starting position had NO backup
2. Simmed until ALL position players were tired.
3. Inserted the SAME backup player in EACH position at 0%.
4. Simmed 1 day at a time and did NOT REMOVE the backup from each position as the starter became rested.

Position that the backup player played on a day by day basis:
SS
SS
LF
CF
CF
CF
CF
1B
1B
1B
1B
1B
DH
DH
DH
3B
3B
3B
CF CFer was tired again
1B 1Bman was tired again
2B
2B
C
C
C
RF
RF
RF
RF

Results: Exact same results as test #2 but with a slight difference. The bold shows that when the CFer was tired.. it jumped back to him to rest him. Then when the 1Bman became tired it also jumped back to cover for him... but.. Why did it jump back to the CFer and the 1Bman... and Why did it cover the CFer THEN the 1Bman... not the 1Bman THEN the CFer?

----------------------------------------------

Is there an order in which a player that backs up multiple positions will actually backup. (makes no sense.. but it will) Test #4 figures it out.

Test #4
1. Set lineups so batting order was as follows, C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, CF, RF, DH.
2. All starting position had NO backup
3. Simmed until ALL position players were tired.
4. Inserted the SAME backup player in EACH position at 0%.
5. Simmed 1 day at a time and did NOT REMOVE the backup from each position as the starter became rested.

Position that the backup player played on a day by day basis:
C
C
1B
1B
1B
2B
2B
3B
3B
3B
3B
SS
SS
SS
C
1B
LF
LF
LF
2B
3B
CF
CF
RF
RF
RF
RF

There is infact a pattern here. If a backup player is backing up mulitiple positions.. he will backup the player who is HIGHER in the batting order first. ie. If your SS is batting 1st.. and your 3Bman is batting 6th... and both the SS and the 3Bman have the same backup player and both are tired.. the SS will be "rested" before the 3Bman. Make sense?


Overall conclusion according to my test results:

1. 0% depth charts work. They will only sub that backup player in IF your starter is tired.

2. If a backup is backing up multiple positions... he will "rest" the player that is higher in the batting order first.

Thoughts?

Kurtis

---------------------------------------

This was Markus' reply to my test.. so I was off a bit

Originally posted by Markus Heinsohn
Actually it's not the lineup that matter, but rather the position. The pattern is 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10(DH)

Since this is done with programming language, a simple loop was used where it starts with 2 and continues forward to 10. The first position there is a tired player, he will be replaced. :P

[Draft Dodger]

I like this test.

but it doesn't cover the scenario above.

let's say you have the following (just using 2 positions):
Staters:
RF Adam Jones
DH Tim Smith

Backup:
RF Tim Smith
DH Allen Green

I think what thomamon (and me) wants is that if Adam Jones gets tired, Tim Smith would move out to the OF and start in his place, and Allen Green would start at DH.

Instead, in the game I believe Jones will continue to play tired (unless there's a 2nd backup who's not a starter) because the game wont take Smith from his starting DH spot, even though he's got a capable backup ready to go.

[Kurtis R.]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
Instead, in the game I believe Jones will continue to play tired (unless there's a 2nd backup who's not a starter) because the game wont take Smith from his starting DH spot, even though he's got a capable backup ready to go.

This is exactly how it works.

Kurtis

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Kurtis R.
This is exactly how it works.

Kurtis

wait, are you saying I'm right, or I'm wrong?

[Kurtis R.]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
wait, are you saying I'm right, or I'm wrong?

I'm saying that you are wrong to say or think that you are wrong.

Kurtis

[Modern Relic]

Excellent info in this thread that explains some weird things I've noticed in the past.

[Draft Dodger]

well, you lost me!

[Joshv02]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
wait, are you saying I'm right, or I'm wrong?

Originally posted by Kurtis R.
I'm saying that you are wrong to say or think that you are wrong.

Kurtis

Absolutely the best response on the board in a long time.

Kudos to Kurtis.

[swampdragon]

But Draft Dodger has identified the worst hole in the depth chart system. It's one I think you can fix by allowing the user to assign priorities to the various roles. In Draft Dodger's situation, Smith's backup role as RF could be assigned as primary, so the AI would look at that first when deciding where to put him. The current method works poorly for multiposition regulars. I first saw this in OOTP3, when Honus Wagner never got his regular playing time if you made him a SS. He actually played RF until Bones Ely was traded and then moved to SS. But you can't make him a SS and backup RF. The regular at one position will not sub at another position.

[sporr]

A better solution in my mind would be to have a dozen or so slots for pre-set lineups. You would schedule which lineups to use on which days or you could even set what percentage of the time each lineup would be used. This would allow you alot of flexibility in resting players and setting things up exactly the way you want them so that your poor-hitting backup 2B doesn't bat cleanup just because your stud starter does.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally posted by sporr
A better solution in my mind would be to have a dozen or so slots for pre-set lineups. You would schedule which lineups to use on which days or you could even set what percentage of the time each lineup would be used. This would allow you alot of flexibility in resting players and setting things up exactly the way you want them so that your poor-hitting backup 2B doesn't bat cleanup just because your stud starter does.

Amen.

[thomamon]

I remember in a game I use to play, don't remember which it was cause it wasn't any good but you use to set 5 lineups vs. RHP (1 vs. a #1 starter, #2 starter, #3 starter and so on) and 5 lineups vs. LHP(again, 1 vs. teams # starter). I didn't like that idea, cause it didn't leave much control.

I like the idea of the depth chart, I just wish we could have a little more flexabilty so my DH can also play OF since he is the best fielding substitute as well. I have a dilema and I don't know what to do, lol.

TM

[Ktulu]

A better solution in my mind would be to have a dozen or so slots for pre-set lineups. You would schedule which lineups to use on which days or you could even set what percentage of the time each lineup would be used. This would allow you alot of flexibility in resting players and setting things up exactly the way you want them so that your poor-hitting backup 2B doesn't bat cleanup just because your stud starter does.

Something like this would be very nice to have... this also leads to a question, has ootp6's lineup AI changed at all. Ex. will situations like the poor hitting 2b above still occur?