AL East 2004

[Logan2Government]

There should be two polls for the al east. pre and post a-rod trade announcement. this one obviously serves as the pre

[LiftTheCurse]

Agreed...but i', sure NYY would be overwhelming favorites

[LiftTheCurse]

Agreed...but i'm sure NYY would be overwhelming favorites

[draven085]

Adding A-Rod while subtracting Soriano doesn't improve the Yanks that much, especially if the move him to 3rd instead of Jeter.

[dougaiton]

The problem is that the Yankees will come to their senses eventually!

if they move A-Rod to SS, Jeter to 3rd and sign some kind of decent defensive 2B (NB: neither Cairo nor Wilson), then the Yankees biggest weakness apart from their bullpen, their defense up the middle, would be pretty much fixed. Add the offensive boost, and the Yanks are better in pretty much every department than last year.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I love short-series playoff games.

EDIT: My decision to pluralise 'A-Rod' was questionable at best.

[draven085]

Originally posted by dougaiton
The problem is that the Yankees will come to their senses eventually!

I don't think so, for two reasons.

1) A lot of people don't understand at all how to rate fielders and honestly think Jeter is a good SS because he does his 'ballerina play*' where he goes into the hole to field a grounder, leaps in the air, and makes an acrobatic throw to first.

2) Unfortunately I live in the metropolitan NY area and get a chance to watch NY news quite regularly. About 1-12 days ago channel 2 sports buffoon Warner Wolf asked Jeter about switching positions. Despite claims that Jeter 'just wants to win' and is a 'real team player', Jeter was clearly irritated at even the suggestion that he might be displaced. Since Jeter is Mr. Yankee and is clearly not in favor of a position swap, I don't see him moving.

*- a DRaven original.

[dougaiton]

Originally posted by draven085


1)....'ballerina play*' ....

I like it. I'm going to use that in the conversation I'm about to have in 5 minutes time with fellow embittered RedSox fans (i.e. my parents) - I had a distressed email this morning to inform me (as if I didn't know) about the trade.

[draven085]

I was hoping for a "Cracking draven!"

[dougaiton]

Cracking draven!

Played for and got.

[mlyons]

There actually might be some logical reasoning behind the decision to move A-Rod to 3rd and keep Jeter at short (beyond all the political stuff and ego-soothing). While I don't think Jeter's as bad a SS as people around here seem to think, I would certainly agree that A-Rod's much better at it. The thing is, I think A-Rod would also be a much better 3B than Jeter. The strengths of Jeter's fielding (and yes, he does have strengths) show up more at SS -- he has a very strong arm and great range into the outfield on shallow fly balls. His weaknesses show up more at 3B -- he doesn't have the quickest reaction to the ball off the bat and doesn't move well to his left. A-Rod's defensive strengths seem like they would translate well to just about any position on the field. I wouldn't be surprised if he won another Gold Glove at third, but I'd be really surprised if Jeter played well at third.

Of course, the other reason that A-Rod will play third is that he said he wanted to.

[draven085]

Originally posted by mlyons
There actually might be some logical reasoning behind the decision to move A-Rod to 3rd and keep Jeter at short (beyond all the political stuff and ego-soothing). While I don't think Jeter's as bad a SS as people around here seem to think, I would certainly agree that A-Rod's much better at it. The thing is, I think A-Rod would also be a much better 3B than Jeter. The strengths of Jeter's fielding (and yes, he does have strengths) show up more at SS -- he has a very strong arm and great range into the outfield on shallow fly balls. His weaknesses show up more at 3B -- he doesn't have the quickest reaction to the ball off the bat and doesn't move well to his left. A-Rod's defensive strengths seem like they would translate well to just about any position on the field. I wouldn't be surprised if he won another Gold Glove at third, but I'd be really surprised if Jeter played well at third.

Of course, the other reason that A-Rod will play third is that he said he wanted to.

Jeter will cost you far more runs at SS than A-Rod could ever save at 3rd. Jeter is as bad as everyone around here says. He's the worst defensive starting SS in the majors. I've yet to see anything other than someone saying, "He's not that bad," that demonstrates he's anything better than woefully inadequate.

[mlyons]

Originally posted by draven085
Jeter will cost you far more runs at SS than A-Rod could ever save at 3rd. Jeter is as bad as everyone around here says. He's the worst defensive starting SS in the majors. I've yet to see anything other than someone saying, "He's not that bad," that demonstrates he's anything better than woefully inadequate.

I know why you say Jeter is the worst defensive SS in the majors. I've seen the stats that "prove" it. I also realize there's absolutely no way to change the mind of someone who relies on zone ratings, range factors, and win shares to define how good a fielder someone is. The only thing I can say is: watch him play. He's a good shortstop -- not great, but good. He has glaring weaknesses, like I said before, but he also has strengths. And clearly he can't be "woefully inadequate," because you can't win the way the Yankees have over the last 8 years with someone "woefully inadequate" at what is arguably the most important defensive position on the field.

[matskralc]

Originally posted by mlyons
And clearly he can't be "woefully inadequate," because you can't win the way the Yankees have over the last 8 years with someone "woefully inadequate" at what is arguably the most important defensive position on the field.

Sure you can. Surround him with a team that makes up for it. It's not rocket science.

[draven085]

Agreed Mats. I'd just like to add that observing defensive abilities is almost useless. I'd rather rely on relatively hard numbers than the impressions someone got from watching a handful of games. Current defensive statistics are exact but they give you a fairly decent idea of who is good and who isn't.

[CommishJoe]

I dont think I'm the only one who thinks this current defensive alignment won't stay for long.

[mlyons]

Originally posted by draven085
Agreed Mats. I'd just like to add that observing defensive abilities is almost useless. I'd rather rely on relatively hard numbers than the impressions someone got from watching a handful of games. Current defensive statistics are exact but they give you a fairly decent idea of who is good and who isn't.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. IMO, not observing defensive abilities is almost useless. I know it's sacrilege to all the Bill James-o-philes out there, but there are things in baseball that can not be quantified by statistics, but have to be seen to be appreciated. There are fewer of them than in any other sport, but they are indeed there. Derek Jeter is the kind of guy who statheads hate, because they can't explain why he's a good player, but everyone who's ever played with or observed him play on a regular basis will tell you that he improves his team -- on the defensive end as well as the offensive end.

BTW, I've watched hundreds of Yankees games, not "a handful". How many have you seen?

Edit: I really don't want to start a huge debate here. My point is that there will always be a difference of opinion between people who feel that statistics can tell them everything important about the game and people who think a game boils down to more than just statistics -- that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I think it's a fairly irreconcilable debate, and, personally, while I do value a lot of statistics, I think a player's value to his team ultimately can't be summed up by numbers.

[draven085]

This discussion has nothing to do with Bill James. I agree that there are certain things in baseball that can't be perfectly quantified by statistics and I said as much above. You can disagree but to ignore the mountains of statistical evidence that demonstrate that Jeter sucks at short isn't terribly wise, IMO. Why ignore that data completely?

I hate the Yankees so I only watch them when they play the Sox. That said, I've seen enough plays where Jeter takes one step and dives or a groundball makes it through the left side of the Yankee infield to know that his actual play appears to back up the statistical claims about his defense.

[matskralc]

Originally posted by mlyons
We'll have to agree to disagree here. IMO, not observing defensive abilities is almost useless.

I observed the sun today. Clearly, it moves around the earth.







What's that? You have mountains of evidence of a different observational method to disprove me? That's poppycock. How many times have YOU watched the sun move around the earth, huh???

[matskralc]

Originally posted by draven085
I hate the Yankees so I only watch them when they play the Sox. That said, I've seen enough plays where Jeter takes one step and dives or a groundball makes it through the left side of the Yankee infield to know that his actual play appears to back up the statistical claims about his defense.

I seem to recall two base hits in the direction of Jeter during Game Six of the World Series that any shortstop with any semblance of "range" would have stopped.

[Carlton]

Really just stop it, freakin lashing out at someone who has a difference of opinion.

I, too, believe Jeter is not as bad as most claim. He is intelligent, knows everything that goes on, on every play...he never has had a lapse judgement wise on the field. (His most telling play was the slide and redirection of the ball to homeplate) He tracks flyballs really well, and in fact I think he would be a stellar OF, especially with his arm...and his arm is excellent. His main flaw which is very evident is his reaction time. He doesn't react well to the ball off the bat, hence is a second too slow...and his is too proud (or pig headed) to make up for this by playing deep.

Thing, is since 3B is a one step dive and throw position, I think his most glaring weakness, his reaction time, would be worse at 3B then SS. A smart move would to play SS closer to 2B...Rodriguez off the bag and closer to SS then most third basemen.

But whatever they do, I feel this Yankee team will implode.

Rodriguez ONLY moved to 3B to leave Texas and manager Buck Showalter...what's that say about his prima donna attitude? Buck didn't kiss his butt and blamed the whole team on last years woes and it hurt his fragile pride. Jeter has the same makeup...Sheffield is the same "Give me love, but no blame" crybaby. If Jeter gets nicked one time, look for Rodriguez to Wally Pipp him out of SS...and then the fireworks will start...it will be Soap Opera City in the Bronx...and no WS ring.