Next Fix Build - Estimated Date - This one is not stable enough to play

[malor]

Originally Posted by WhiskyTango

Since the sale to com2us what is also being acknowledged - even indirectly - is the ownership of OOTP. OOTPD is owned by com2us. So it's no longer about rallying around Markus and the boys. Is it heartening when the new ownership doesn't seem to have much investment in improving and promoting the game?


And to be fair to the OP - computer-controlled teams hiring and managing personnel is hardly a new feature still working out kinks.

Thank you.

That has been my main point. Why are developers changing stuff that worked fine, like skins and other screens designs and then not fully testing them? I can understand wanting to update the AI and other changes made in this version, but you have to test them and make sure they are working before a release, not after.

For me, version 26 was not really stable enough to trust moving over my main save (started in 16) until September. There were too many issues in the new version being reported and not addressed, including mine. That shows more and more, the devs really do not care enough to support the product.

[drewc71]

I think the game is great and runs stable for me.

[low]

Originally Posted by Karl Pagel Blues

The game was officially launched less than TWO DAYS AGO bro!

Go outside for a walk or read a book. You sound like a sad loser right now, to be honest.

Come on. Do better.

[HafTaLuvIt]

Originally Posted by malor

200+ Play testers or 195 players who want to say they played the early version without actually ever reporting any bugs and 10-15 that actually tested as their limited time permitted, opening bugs they found, but not playing deep enough to find any actual large bugs.

Testing is part of product development. Making more changes than can be tested is irresponsible.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by malor

Thank you.

That has been my main point. Why are developers changing stuff that worked fine, like skins and other screens designs and then not fully testing them? I can understand wanting to update the AI and other changes made in this version, but you have to test them and make sure they are working before a release, not after.

For me, version 26 was not really stable enough to trust moving over my main save (started in 16) until September. There were too many issues in the new version being reported and not addressed, including mine. That shows more and more, the devs really do not care enough to support the product.

To say that the developers don’t care is a little harsh just like someone saying it’s only $50 or to take a walk.
For several of the developers this has been their life and livelihood for years and of course they care a lot, much more than the rest of us. They are a small team and I’m sure there are some things about the game they have very little control over.
If I was a newbie and just bought the game I too would be very frustrated but I have been here long enough to realize they will monitor these forums and work many overtime hours fixing the listed bugs/issues if at all possible.

[Benz0709]

Originally Posted by Reed

To say that the developers don’t care is a little harsh just like someone saying it’s only $50 or to take a walk.
For several of the developers this has been their life and livelihood for years and of course they care a lot, much more than the rest of us. They are a small team and I’m sure there are some things about the game they have very little control over.
If I was a newbie and just bought the game I too would be very frustrated but I have been here long enough to realize they will monitor these forums and work many overtime hours fixing the listed bugs/issues if at all possible.

If you were a newbie and bought this game for the first time you wouldn't even notice majority of the things people are citing as game breaking. Not to downplay the issues, they all should be fixed. But overall, the immersive experience is still there.

Veterans of the series who notice the small things, the bigger gripe is why are things broken that ultimately haven't changed and worked before. And there is a lot more than normal at release, even given the slow deterioration of game testing as a whole.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Benz0709

Veterans of the series who notice the small things, the bigger gripe is why are things broken that ultimately haven't changed and worked before. And there is a lot more than normal at release, even given the slow deterioration of game testing as a whole.

This is a fair statement without knowing what existing features you mentioned that were working fine are now broken. Regression issues can always be missed in testing, thought plenty more have been found and fixed before release.

[MK_735]

Originally Posted by malor

For me, version 26 was not really stable enough to trust moving over my main save (started in 16) until September. There were too many issues in the new version being reported and not addressed, including mine. That shows more and more, the devs really do not care enough to support the product.

"the devs really do not care enough to support the product" is such a sad excuse of criticism. Like it's outright pathetic. If you do believe that, delete your account, don't worry about an update and never buy a game from the team again. There.

You come off incredibly entitled over a stream of comments while also making weird ass assertions about the devs and their "attitude."

You have an immense amount of ignorance when it comes to game development my friend. If you checked that you might gain a little perspective.

And it's worth asking because I don't know if we know this but who makes the call on when the games get released now? Is it the devs? Or is it their bosses at com2us lol? Typically in the industry it would be the latter after many meetings on the subject but maybe OOTP devs got lucky with their deal. Maybe they could've given themselves an extra week to work out the kinks. I don't know, do you?

Originally Posted by low

Come on. Do better.

And you see the above and just demand others to "do better." Laughable. Why do better when the OP can't. The OP is getting the energy is dishes because it's what he deserves. It's that simple. Plenty of people on this forum are delivering justifiable criticism or insights into bugs and potential issues like respectable adults. Maybe that's what this started out as, but it's devolved into something else.

[highandoutside]

Hey man, you may have some legitimate issues with the game, but your tone is ridiculous.

The world is ****ty enough; couldn't you just point to the problems and ask the developers and other players to take a look at them? Those of us who have played this game for a long time have grown to trust that the development team and community will address any serious issues.

Maybe show a little maturity and talk to people the way you'd want to be talked to. They're not out here trying to rip you off. It's a complicated game they are programming; there are going to be issues here and there.

[Sweed]

Some general thoughts on the three day early beta...

One thing I'd add is the three day early version is a beta version. It is labeled a beta version. I'm not sure why some say they shouldn't have to pay to beta test the game during those three days? That really is the point of the three days (with the only payback for the user being the discount and seeing the game early) . The developer wants/needs to get the beta into more hands that can report bugs/things they see and hopefully have those taken care of for the release version. The beta isn't just so users that preorder can play the game early. It is also a tool for the developer. But it is clearly labeled a beta and any user that starts a "real" game using it should understand the risks. Before I was a Steam user and I got the beta version I pretty much only did a few things over the three days. First, import my game to make sure the import worked and how things changed (ie beta test). Next I'd look around and report any bugs/errors I might see (ie beta test), confirm old views still worked(ie beta test), and build new views (also a form of beta testing) so I'd be ready to go when the release version came out.

Originally Posted by malor

I almost did not buy early this year. Will be waiting for a mid-season sale next year. I'm not paying to be a tester.

I'd say if you are buying to get the early release beta version you are doing just that. It is fair enough if you don't want to do that. It is fair enough for you to wait for a mid-season sale after a few patches. No issues with that at all. But if you do buy early next year at least go in accepting that it is a beta version and will have issues. Some of them obvious that testers missed. Some of those will also be missed by the few thousand(?) early beta buyers. Let's look at the personnel issue...
As a Steam buyer I was looking through the support forum during the three day beta version to see what issues users were having. I don't recall anyone saying anything about personnel during those three days. The first message I found using a search was by you on March 14. The first patch was out on March 12, and the fist hotfix on March 14. How did it take the "three day early users" 4 days to find and post this issue? How come in all of those days only you posted about the issue? Did nobody else see it? Maybe if this "obvious" error that the "lazy (only want to play the game early) beta testers" missed had been posted sooner by just one of the early buyers it would have been in either the March 12 patch or March 14 hotfix.

I'd also say if you don't buy early next year and post issues you find the game will be worse for it. You obviously care, but if it does bother you it's not worth the aggravation.

[malor]

Buying early to save 10%. I expect issues from Tues. Beta and expect them fixed by full release. Next year I will be waiting until a 50% sale to save even more. Let the suckers pay full price to be a tester. I know 2 other players that will be waiting this year until the first big sale because they were disappointed with 26 and the support for it.

The Friday full release should be fully playable and not have the type of bugs being reported. Will there be bugs. Yes there will, but they should not be game stoppers like the ones in this release.

[HafTaLuvIt]

The idea the devs don't care enough about the game to do the right thing is a negative moral judgement. And to be possible it requires that the devs be capable of doing the right thing.

[MK_735]

Originally Posted by malor

Buying early to save 10%. I expect issues from Tues. Beta and expect them fixed by full release. Next year I will be waiting until a 50% sale to save even more. Let the suckers pay full price to be a tester. I know 2 other players that will be waiting this year until the first big sale because they were disappointed with 26 and the support for it.

The Friday full release should be fully playable and not have the type of bugs being reported. Will there be bugs. Yes there will, but they should not be game stoppers like the ones in this release.

Your expectations are frankly silly and void of the knowledge (and respect) about game development. Some issues can be too complex to fix in just 3 days. Some issues may need a "fix" to be released to the public to actually see if it was a fix. That's the reality of game development especially with a complex simulation game. You can test for hours but there is no better tester than the thousands who buy the game. Do they want "game breaking" bugs? No. But I've already explained how this could occur.

At the end of day, every launch we've had there's always been issues. Some years are better than others. BUT it would irresponsible to suggest they don't bust their ass post launch and fix as many bugs and issues as possible. And you know why they do that? Because they care.

I'm not saying you should shut up but chill out with the insults to the development team. I'm not thrilled with some of the issues in the game myself. However, as someone who has been playing these games since 15 the devs have gained my trust because I've seen them push out patches within days of launch. I've seen them put in the work immediately after launch to fix the issues in the games.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by malor

200+ Play testers or 195 players who want to say they played the early version without actually ever reporting any bugs and 10-15 that actually tested as their limited time permitted, opening bugs they found, but not playing deep enough to find any actual large bugs.

You assume a lot, without knowing what others have done.

Personally, I ran several long-term simulations during the beta testing period without seeing the financial issues that you site. I also did not see the issue of teams not hiring coaches.

It would be helpful if you could provide the saved files that show these issues. Zip the dat files and post them so they can be checked.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Orcin

You assume a lot, without knowing what others have done.

Personally, I ran several long-term simulations during the beta testing period without seeing the financial issues that you site. I also did not see the issue of teams not hiring coaches.

It would be helpful if you could provide the saved files that show these issues. Zip the dat files and post them so they can be checked.

Lukas posted that the coaches issue will be fixed in the next patch.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Lukas posted that the coaches issue will be fixed in the next patch.

Interesting. I do not even see a bug report for this issue.

[venflaalachi]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Interesting. I do not even see a bug report for this issue.

There is a thread on it in the technical/bug reports forum.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by venflaalachi

There is a thread on it in the technical/bug reports forum.

I see it now, thanks.

[malor]

Originally Posted by Orcin

You assume a lot, without knowing what others have done.

Personally, I ran several long-term simulations during the beta testing period without seeing the financial issues that you site. I also did not see the issue of teams not hiring coaches.

It would be helpful if you could provide the saved files that show these issues. Zip the dat files and post them so they can be checked.

I thank you for your efforts and assume you were correct. However, when you tested it was probably working. Any change at any time can introduce bugs. Did you run the same tests after every change in the code after your long-term tests?

For a game this huge and complicated, there is a need for lots of regression testing to make sure one little fix does not break something unrelated. So you should have run the long term sims multiple times after every fix right up until the final release build was made and then tested that build even more thoroughly to be on top of any remaining issues.

A quick minor 1 hour coding fix at this stage should be followed with dozens of hours of testing. You can't just go, my fix corrects the bug and not test the entire application. The fix could introduce many other bugs that will not be obvious.

My assumption on the personnel asking for more money bug and then not signing, leaving open position, this is what happened. I do not believe any tester would have missed that if they were looking at everything. It took me about 15 minutes to notice in my 3rd sim season. Then I checked other teams and found it everywhere.

Again. Thanks for your time testing. It is not fun sometimes and is the worst part of development time. Usually little reward for time spent, but without it, no application could ever be deployed.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by malor

I thank you for your efforts and assume you were correct. However, when you tested it was probably working. Any change at any time can introduce bugs. Did you run the same tests after every change in the code after your long-term tests?

For a game this huge and complicated, there is a need for lots of regression testing to make sure one little fix does not break something unrelated. So you should have run the long term sims multiple times after every fix right up until the final release build was made and then tested that build even more thoroughly to be on top of any remaining issues.

A quick minor 1 hour coding fix at this stage should be followed with dozens of hours of testing. You can't just go, my fix corrects the bug and not test the entire application. The fix could introduce many other bugs that will not be obvious.

My assumption on the personnel asking for more money bug and then not signing, leaving open position, this is what happened. I do not believe any tester would have missed that if they were looking at everything. It took me about 15 minutes to notice in my 3rd sim season. Then I checked other teams and found it everywhere.

Again. Thanks for your time testing. It is not fun sometimes and is the worst part of development time. Usually little reward for time spent, but without it, no application could ever be deployed.

You are essentially proving the point here. Orcin isn't getting paid to test, he is volunteering his time. While, yes, those of us who test are happy to donate some time...most don't have the dozens of hours that you mention and particularly do not necessarily have them exactly at the moment the Devs need them. The Dev team is very small and also does not have these hours.

Games like OOTP simply would not exist and/or would have greatly diminished feature sets if they were expected to come out completely bug free. This is part of the territory for this type of game.