2025 Detroit Tigers: AKA The Skubal Trade Watch Thread

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

But I believe it's about to be over.

Well, I was wrong. On to the 14th! Now it's a challenge — pop open that can of Red Bull!

[Hrycaj]

What a game. Kahnle did not give me any confidence but you didnt have many options at that point. Tigers had plenty of opportunities to score and they couldnt do it. I though the home plate umpire was really good calling balls and strikes tonight. Congrats to the Mariners. I know the few Mariners fans on this forum were hoping they got the Tigers because they thought it would be a sweep and that every loss was a conspiracy but hey, that's Fandom. I'm happy for them and if I can admit, a bit jealous of them because they have a gm, for better or worse, that will add to the team to go for it. I know Cubs/Brewers arent done yet but of the 3 teams that have punched their tickets they all have one thing in common. They weren't afraid to add to the team whether it was at the deadline or in the off-season. The Tigers only really adding Torres and re-signing Flaherty is just not enough when you want to win the league.

[CONN CHRIS]

Happy for the long-suffering Mariners fans - go win some more!

The bullpen did better than I would have anticipated last night, with the exception of Kahnle.

Last year left me full of anticipation. This year, just regret over moves that were right there for the taking but passed over, and what might have been.

A smidge extra might have landed Bregman in the off-season and David Bednar at the deadline would have likely been enough to sustain this team.

[Cod]

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

What a game. Kahnle did not give me any confidence but you didnt have many options at that point. Tigers had plenty of opportunities to score and they couldnt do it.

100% this. The pitching for Detroit was outstanding and only giving up 3 runs across 15-innings is not a pitching or bullpen management problem. Both clubs just played very well on defense and pitched great. Hats off to both teams for a great game/series!

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Cod

100% this. The pitching for Detroit was outstanding and only giving up 3 runs across 15-innings is not a pitching or bullpen management problem. Both clubs just played very well on defense and pitched great. Hats off to both teams for a great game/series!

I tell you, and I apologize for sounding like a broken record, that one of the pleasant aspects of broadening my sports horizons has been the serendipity of enjoying games like that one last night. What a battle. In the past, I would have signed off of baseball after the Yankees were out of it and I would have missed this gem.

[Westheim]

Well. ****.

There were plenty of runners on base in extra innings, but at some point you gotta get somebody home to score. Kerry Carpenter can't do it all by himself.

Sigh.

SIGH.

[Amazin69]

Obviously, you can't put it all on the decision to pull Skubal, given that the Tigers had an entire extra ball game (innings 7-15) to score another run, but watching Hinch yank…

a) the best pitcher in baseball
b) who had set records for post-season performance in this game, and
c) had just blown away Cal "Jesse Winker Wants to Bang My Butt" Raleigh on a 101-mph heater

…because of a ****ing number makes me want to vomit. No manager in the history of baseball who actually watched Skubal pitch instead of being a slave to the goddamn pitch count would have even thought about lifting him, not for a second. I hate "modern" "baseball" so much.

Tom "the Weasel" Verducci was all "well they sent Skubal back out for the 7th in his previous start and he was totally gassed" as if that means anything. You know how I can tell if Skubal is "gassed", Weasel? When he's not throwing so hard that Raleigh would rather have Winker grinding on his cheeks than have to face Tarik, that's when!

Suppose Skubal goes out for the 7th and it turns out that he did use up everything smoking Cuddle Buns and J-Rod hits his first pitch 550 ft to dead center and ties the game? So what? You're pretty much right back where Finnegan put you, anyhow. Moronic.

But, but, but…if Skubal had gone too deep, he might not have been available for the ALCS! Yeah, well now the whole team is unavailable for the ALCS. And so it goes…

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

…because of a ****ing number makes me want to vomit. No manager in the history of baseball who actually watched Skubal pitch instead of being a slave to the goddamn pitch count would have even thought about lifting him, not for a second. I hate "modern" "baseball" so much.

Pardon me, sir, but have you met Mr. Aaron Boone? Allow me to introduce you . . .

[Déjà Bru]

Heh, I really cannot blame this fellow. From The Athletic:

Tigers radio announcer apologizes for swearing on broadcast after ALDS Game 5 elimination

By Devon Henderson



Detroit Tigers radio announcer Dan Dickerson has apologized after swearing on a hot mic during a commercial break, expressing his frustration after Detroit’s 3-2 loss to the Seattle Mariners in Game 5 of the American League Division Series.

After 15 innings of baseball over nearly five hours, which ended the Tigers’ season, the radio broadcast cut to a commercial, but the mic was still live.

“I don’t have to do a game (recap)?” Dickerson said. “Ah, f—. F— this game recap.”

He quickly realized he was still on the air.

“Oh, I’m sorry, was that out loud?” Dickerson said, before going to break.

On Saturday morning, Dickerson, a radio veteran who has been the Tigers’ lead play-by-play announcer since 2003, addressed the incident in a statement to the Detroit Free Press.

“I want to sincerely apologize for swearing during a break in the post-game last night,” he said. “Our mics were inadvertently left open — but I know better than to swear into an open mic.

“It was said in a moment of frustration, and not a reflection about how I feel about doing the game recap — just how I felt about doing it in that moment after a five-hour, 15-inning, season-ending loss. I’m very sorry any fans had to hear it — my apologies again.”

In response, many Tigers fans voiced support for Dickerson on the social platform X and expressed solidarity with his reaction.

[Amazin69]

My hypothetical was about managers who weren't slaves to the pitch count, Bru. Which yes, excludes Aaron Boone-head, but also his disciple, Moron Mendoza, and in this case, AJ Hinch, and for all I know, all 30 current managers.

Perhaps the last example of managers judging on performance rather than ptich count came back in 2012 when Terry Collins let Johan Santana throw 135 pitches to complete the only true no-hitter in Mets history; I don't know.

But if the night Mike Baxter hit the wall is the dividing line between sanity and robotics, I know which side of that line I prefer.

[Cod]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

Obviously, you can't put it all on the decision to pull Skubal, given that the Tigers had an entire extra ball game (innings 7-15) to score another run, but watching Hinch yank…

a) the best pitcher in baseball
b) who had set records for post-season performance in this game, and
c) had just blown away Cal "Jesse Winker Wants to Bang My Butt" Raleigh on a 101-mph heater

…because of a ****ing number makes me want to vomit. No manager in the history of baseball who actually watched Skubal pitch instead of being a slave to the goddamn pitch count would have even thought about lifting him, not for a second. I hate "modern" "baseball" so much.

Tom "the Weasel" Verducci was all "well they sent Skubal back out for the 7th in his previous start and he was totally gassed" as if that means anything. You know how I can tell if Skubal is "gassed", Weasel? When he's not throwing so hard that Raleigh would rather have Winker grinding on his cheeks than have to face Tarik, that's when!

Suppose Skubal goes out for the 7th and it turns out that he did use up everything smoking Cuddle Buns and J-Rod hits his first pitch 550 ft to dead center and ties the game? So what? You're pretty much right back where Finnegan put you, anyhow. Moronic.

But, but, but…if Skubal had gone too deep, he might not have been available for the ALCS! Yeah, well now the whole team is unavailable for the ALCS. And so it goes…

Skubal told Hinch before the sixth inning that he only had one inning left in him. Wainwright spoke about it throughout the night after Skubal left. So don't blame AJ, he spoke with the player and they both agreed. That's good coaching in my opinion.

AJ even said this in his post game conference: “After the fifth, I checked in on him how he was doing physically and emotionally, and we both knew that he had one left,” Hinch said. “You know, he emptied his tank and obviously was emotional coming off the mound, and I think that signals exactly where we were in the game. He gave us everything he could.”. So unless he's lying, again, I think that's good coaching.

Also, pitching management did not lose the game for Detroit. Lack of offense and leaving runners on base did.

[Amazin69]

Meh. I'm from the school of "the pitcher pitches until he's not pitching well". It's simpler.

"I'm feeling tired" merits a "you're doing fine, keep going"*, IMO. But pitchers nowadays are conditioned to look for the off-ramp rather than a way to navigate issues, sadly.

*-or possibly a "Who ****ing asked you? This is our season, you pussy! Get back out there!!" But I'm for civility, where possible.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

Meh. I'm from the school of "the pitcher pitches until he's not pitching well". It's simpler.

"I'm feeling tired" merits a "you're doing fine, keep going"*, IMO. But pitchers nowadays are conditioned to look for the off-ramp rather than a way to navigate issues, sadly.

*-or possibly a "Who ****ing asked you? This is our season, you pussy! Get back out there!!" But I'm for civility, where possible.

Putting a tired pitcher back on the mound to lose a game is a song we've heard for 150 years.

If a pitcher says he's done, he's done.

[Hrycaj]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Putting a tired pitcher back on the mound to lose a game is a song we've heard for 150 years.

If a pitcher says he's done, he's done.

And that decision has not aged well in Detroit over the last two days. Skubal may be the best pitcher in baseball but if he can't go more than 5/6 innings in a start is he really a 400 million dollar pitcher? Someone will pay it, it won't be Detroit but whoever does is this going to be another example of why you don't overpay on starters. He did give the Tigers almost 200 innings this year and without him the Tigers were dead in the water. I'm not trying to diminish his importance. When it mattered though, on Saturday, he tapped out instead of ringing the bell. In today's world is ANY starting pitcher worth 400 million based on the fact that 200 innings from one is a long shot altogether. This isn't an argument about whether a team can afford 400 million (every team can, these guys are billionaires) but more of is that a smart use of your assets? How quickly does most of that contract become dead money?

[CONN CHRIS]

What a game yesterday - Don't let up M's!

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

And that decision has not aged well in Detroit over the last two days. Skubal may be the best pitcher in baseball but if he can't go more than 5/6 innings in a start is he really a 400 million dollar pitcher? Someone will pay it, it won't be Detroit but whoever does is this going to be another example of why you don't overpay on starters. He did give the Tigers almost 200 innings this year and without him the Tigers were dead in the water. I'm not trying to diminish his importance. When it mattered though, on Saturday, he tapped out instead of ringing the bell. In today's world is ANY starting pitcher worth 400 million based on the fact that 200 innings from one is a long shot altogether. This isn't an argument about whether a team can afford 400 million (every team can, these guys are billionaires) but more of is that a smart use of your assets? How quickly does most of that contract become dead money?

Baseball has changed over the last 120 years.

Prior to 1920, baseballs hit out of play were retrieved, and put back IN play. Bill James, in one of his Historical Abstracts (I have them all) states that a 1915 Sporting News article that pitchers were cautioned to "save their stuff" for the critical moments in games. This meant that the baseballs, worn and beat up, were little more than bean bags tossed up to the plate.

This is how pitchers can throw 464 innings in a year. Pound the ball as hard as you want, and it ain't going out. Follow me..I'm on a roll here.

With little incentive to throw hard, strikeout rates were VERY low. It wasn't that players didn't want to swing hard, they knew it was futile. Choking up and hitting a single, or drawing a walk was MUCH more valuable than a .220 hitter that could hit ten homers. "Home Run Baker" hit a dozen dingers, and earned a nickname.

So...Move to 1920, when the Chapman-Mays beaning changed baseball forever. New, clean balls were put in play, and the game fundamentally changed. Pitchers were more cautious, and walk rates went sky high, until the late 40's.

Pitchers were still pitching complete games, and there were some pitchers with amazing complete game stats, such as Gibson, and Nolan Ryan.

If you look at the batting averages for the second, third, and fourth time a batter faced a pitcher, you will see averages going up about twenty points. 220 to .240, to .260, to .280. I reviewed a LOT of pitchers, and it is uncanny.

So..would you rather have Bob Gibson giving up a .280 average in the eighth inning, or bring in a reliever?

Over time, and ESPECIALLY over the last 20 years, teams are fundamentally aware that keeping a pitcher in beyond the sixth inning is a losing proposition. Skubal is no different. Dude got 13 strikeouts in six innings, and was GASSED.

So...after the sixth, bring in a fresh pitcher to throw gas, then ANOTHER reliever, until the game is done.

Is there any wonder why there was just one .300 hitter in the AL this year? It is because pitchers weren't kept in to give up more hits, late in the game. It's the way modern baseball is played.

Could Skubal pitch nine innings? Absolutely...and his rate stats wouldn't be NEAR the same, as he got more and more tired. The Tigers KNOW this...all of baseball knows this, except the fans, who think that removing a pitcher after six exceptional innings is a problem.

[Hrycaj]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Baseball has changed over the last 120 years.

Prior to 1920, baseballs hit out of play were retrieved, and put back IN play. Bill James, in one of his Historical Abstracts (I have them all) states that a 1915 Sporting News article that pitchers were cautioned to "save their stuff" for the critical moments in games. This meant that the baseballs, worn and beat up, were little more than bean bags tossed up to the plate.

This is how pitchers can throw 464 innings in a year. Pound the ball as hard as you want, and it ain't going out. Follow me..I'm on a roll here.

With little incentive to throw hard, strikeout rates were VERY low. It wasn't that players didn't want to swing hard, they knew it was futile. Choking up and hitting a single, or drawing a walk was MUCH more valuable than a .220 hitter that could hit ten homers. "Home Run Baker" hit a dozen dingers, and earned a nickname.

So...Move to 1920, when the Chapman-Mays beaning changed baseball forever. New, clean balls were put in play, and the game fundamentally changed. Pitchers were more cautious, and walk rates went sky high, until the late 40's.

Pitchers were still pitching complete games, and there were some pitchers with amazing complete game stats, such as Gibson, and Nolan Ryan.

If you look at the batting averages for the second, third, and fourth time a batter faced a pitcher, you will see averages going up about twenty points. 220 to .240, to .260, to .280. I reviewed a LOT of pitchers, and it is uncanny.

So..would you rather have Bob Gibson giving up a .280 average in the eighth inning, or bring in a reliever?

Over time, and ESPECIALLY over the last 20 years, teams are fundamentally aware that keeping a pitcher in beyond the sixth inning is a losing proposition. Skubal is no different. Dude got 13 strikeouts in six innings, and was GASSED.

So...after the sixth, bring in a fresh pitcher to throw gas, then ANOTHER reliever, until the game is done.

Is there any wonder why there was just one .300 hitter in the AL this year? It is because pitchers weren't kept in to give up more hits, late in the game. It's the way modern baseball is played.

Could Skubal pitch nine innings? Absolutely...and his rate stats wouldn't be NEAR the same, as he got more and more tired. The Tigers KNOW this...all of baseball knows this, except the fans, who think that removing a pitcher after six exceptional innings is a problem.

I understand how it works. This wasn’t a regular start in July. This was the season being on the line. He did fan 13 of the 18 outs. I don’t think he automatically becomes a bp pitcher if he pitches the 7th. You could have also went at bat to at bat with him. Even if he does give up the run I would rather it be from my best guy than with any other reliever on the team. Ultimately, it’s not what lost the game. Having your 2-5 hitters go o-fer for the game was the bigger issue. Still, back to the original point I think Skubal gives you the best chance to hold the lead in the 7th.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

I understand how it works. This wasn’t a regular start in July. This was the season being on the line. He did fan 13 of the 18 outs. I don’t think he automatically becomes a bp pitcher if he pitches the 7th. You could have also went at bat to at bat with him. Even if he does give up the run I would rather it be from my best guy than with any other reliever on the team. Ultimately, it’s not what lost the game. Having your 2-5 hitters go o-fer for the game was the bigger issue. Still, back to the original point I think Skubal gives you the best chance to hold the lead in the 7th.

It did not lose the game for Detroit but I am with you. After a few days to think about it, if superman can't even give a seventh inning the old college try in the biggest game of the year, maybe we could do without superman.

Which owner told Enos Slaughter, "Son, I've been losing with you, I can sure as hell lose without you"

I am on the trade him for the best deal now train. He will be gone after 2026. I don't wish him ill or hold anything against him for wanting to get all that he can get. Go do it elsewhere Tarek, and thanks for a few great seasons.

[CONN CHRIS]

"It was said in a moment of frustration, and not a reflection about how I feel about doing the game recap"

It's perfectly ok to feel like that about that particular game recap Dan.

Detroit fans love him and more so now.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

IWhich owner told Enos Slaughter, "Son, I've been losing with you, I can sure as hell lose without you"

I never heard that for Country, but I think the first instance of that quote was Branch Rickey in 1953, trading Ralph Kiner to the Cubs for seven pieces of trash.

(I mean, the major return for Mr Slug, 7x HR King and future HoF, was Toby Atwell. You've never heard of Toby Atwell and rightly so. But Rickey was religious and never did like Our Beloved Ralph's being Los Angeles's favorite ballplayer and his going on dates with Hollywood movie stars in the off-season and driving fancy cars and that sort of thing.

Plus, Rickey had basically given up on the Pirates at that point and was doing weird things like signing the Heisman Trophy winner and basketball-star twins and playing a 6'6" pitcher at 2B. I think he'd checked out, and didn't wake up until his scouts [was it Howie Haak, BradK?] caught the Dodgers trying to hide Roberto Clemente in Montreal…)

The occasion that I remember, since it was in my lifetime, is when Bob Horner tried holding out and Ted Turner was "we finished last with you, we can finish last without you". But Horner did eventually re-sign.

I suppose the first evidence may be the Boston sportswriter Bill James once quoted who tried to justify the Red Sox selling Babe Ruth to the Yankees after his record-setting 1919 season by writing that "Ruth's 29 Home Runs didn't prevent the Red Sox from finishing 6th" or similar. But that was an after-the-fact CYA excuse, not a face-to-face confrontation.

Statue of Our Beloved Ralph's hands, outside PNG Park in Pittsburgh:


It's modeled after the famous statue of Joe Louis's fists in Detroit, but in his later visits to the Mets' booth, Ralph admitted that he didn't prefer the "just-the-fists" treatment, preferring instead this more-traditional statuary in his hometown of Alhambra CA:



(I had to tweak the picture to get Ralph out of the shadows.)

No statues of Toby Atwell exist, to my knowledge.