AI needs a HUGE overhaul in OOTP27

[Catchers Interference]

I think I'm finally done with OOTP 26. I started a new save, and right from Opening Day, the AI is completely off the rails—signing free agents who have no business being on a roster, while releasing or DFA’ing 45- and 50-overall players to make room for them. It feels like the AI just signs players because it can, not because it makes any sense. And it never stops. All season long it’s the same cycle: sign a bum, cut an actual MLB-level player, repeat.

Trades are just as bad—90% of them are pointless reliever swaps like it’s some kind of round-robin bullpen carousel. The AI also has no clue how to manage the minors, even when you try to rein it in with roster and age limits.

It’s exhausting. It’s no fun having to jump into commissioner mode constantly just to undo the AI’s ridiculous decisions. And don’t even get me started on the lineup logic—Shohei batting cleanup? What year is this?

Really hope these issues get addressed in OOTP 27, because this year’s version feels like a major step backward. Just not enjoyable right now.

[Déjà Bru]

Is this true?

[omg_pwnasaurus]

For me, the most noticable issue with the AI (or at least the CPU to CPU trade algorithms) has been the weird need for the team that is dealing the rental player at the deadline to also include a top prospect in the deal.

I see a ton of deals that are

high priced veteran (but decent player) rental + top 100 prospect for average young player.

I'm not clear why the CPU always includes a prospect who is objectively better than the one they are receiving in exchange for the veteran. It's very odd to me and it is constant.

Like just remove that part of the equation? vet for decent prospect at the deadline, done deal. Why is there some need to add a huge prospect haul to the vet only making a few months salary on an expiring deal at the deadline? It never made sense to me.

Otherwise, I think most of the stuff I see makes quite a bit of sense and immersion works well at least for my setup. YMMV, etc.

Edit: I also see CPU to CPU trades happen that would have never happened if I proposed them, likely because trading difficulty is high? I'm fine with that since it levels the playing field a bit if I'm not able to get those kinds of deals but still the CPU dealing a 4 star prospect to itself for an average, overpriced reliever when I couldn't even get the 40th man on the roster for this type of player, kind of seems weird as well.

[Sweed]

Not really seeing this in my game on either the free agent signings or rental trades that include prospects on the MLB level. Maybe because mine is a mature game that has imported from version to version and is fictional by attrition? FWIW I do play out all games and check the "MLB all transactions" report daily, reviewing all player movement/trades.

I do think there is more minor league transaction turmoil than in the past. I've wondered if that is due to the development team trying to improve how teams build their minor league clubs? IE with the new "improved coding" the minor league clubs are "always looking" to improve (maybe every day?) and making changes that are marginally better at best. This is only SPECULATION on my part, but if true perhaps computer teams could be coded to be less likely to make marginal improvements? Instead be "happy" with the team they have built unless something MUCH better comes along? Minor league management, IIRC, was listed as being something they worked a lot on for v26. Like any coding I'm sure it will be improved on year to year.

[Karl Pagel Blues]

Originally Posted by Catchers Interference

the AI is completely off the rails—signing free agents who have no business being on a roster, while releasing or DFA’ing 45- and 50-overall players to make room for them. It feels like the AI just signs players because it can, not because it makes any sense. And it never stops. All season long it’s the same cycle: sign a bum, cut an actual MLB-level player, repeat.

I agree and I mentioned the sign and release problem a few times, including here.

I think the first thing is we have to do is stop calling it "AI". OOTP uses static, pre-programmed decision tree logic (if x, then y). So, call it a Scripted Logic Engine. Or Static Rule Tree. Or Non-Adaptive Strategy Model. But let's not call it "AI". The OOTP engine is not intelligent, it's not adaptive, and it never learns. It's always going to be: if x, then y.

This has been the most disappointing (and frustrating) OOTP release I've ever experienced. When the annual pre-release email arrives next spring, it's going straight to the trash.

[Déjà Bru]

Here is a crucial question for me: Was all of this, not just the sign and release issue but the stuff in the opening post, happening in 25?

As to that sign and release issue, I selected a minor league player at random and, sure enough (the list goes on for several more rows; it's June 30 in the game):



Is the AI worse than it was in 25?

[JRRose]

Originally Posted by Catchers Interference

I think I'm finally done with OOTP 26. I started a new save, and right from Opening Day, the AI is completely off the rails—signing free agents who have no business being on a roster, while releasing or DFA’ing 45- and 50-overall players to make room for them. It feels like the AI just signs players because it can, not because it makes any sense. And it never stops. All season long it’s the same cycle: sign a bum, cut an actual MLB-level player, repeat.

Trades are just as bad—90% of them are pointless reliever swaps like it’s some kind of round-robin bullpen carousel. The AI also has no clue how to manage the minors, even when you try to rein it in with roster and age limits.

It’s exhausting. It’s no fun having to jump into commissioner mode constantly just to undo the AI’s ridiculous decisions. And don’t even get me started on the lineup logic—Shohei batting cleanup? What year is this?

Really hope these issues get addressed in OOTP 27, because this year’s version feels like a major step backward. Just not enjoyable right now.

Yup I agree. The lineups are horrible, and the trades are just terrible with their logic. Also the extensions are deals that players would never agree to. Everyone seems to get extended to 5-6 year contracts when they would get way more in free agency.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by JRRose

Yup I agree. The lineups are horrible, and the trades are just terrible with their logic. Also the extensions are deals that players would never agree to. Everyone seems to get extended to 5-6 year contracts when they would get way more in free agency.

But how does it compare to 25? Or is it just a manifestation of the same issues that we have always had in OOTPB? Is it worse than 25?

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Here is a crucial question for me: Was all of this, not just the sign and release issue but the stuff in the opening post, happening in 25?

As to that sign and release issue, I selected a minor league player at random and, sure enough (the list goes on for several more rows; it's June 30 in the game):

Attachment 1083390

Is the AI worse than it was in 25?

Based on that? No.

I've paid attention to milb signings over the years in OOTP, and there seems to be some sort of auto-signing code for the AI teams that doesn't exist for players. Presumably this is to simplify AI load (auto-signing is better than bidding wars) and possibly to prevent the human player from hogging all of the best milb prospects.

However, a lot of times these auto-signings (if that's what is happening) are not appreciated by the AI general managers so they release the player pretty quickly.

I think that is what is happening, but I'm not a dev... I am just trying to infer based on what I've seen in the past.

I've only seen this problem when I am not playing with minor leagues.

[omg_pwnasaurus]

Originally Posted by JRRose

Also the extensions are deals that players would never agree to. Everyone seems to get extended to 5-6 year contracts when they would get way more in free agency.

This is a good point. I've seen this as well. I always play historical starting in the 1980's and I typically see the best players never make it to FA and get extended often times in season during their walk year, etc. Which is possible and happens sometimes I suppose, but it happens quite a bit in my mostly out of the box historical sim. Enough where I take notice that it seems out of the ordinary.

[JRRose]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

But how does it compare to 25? Or is it just a manifestation of the same issues that we have always had in OOTPB? Is it worse than 25?

I only started playing at the end of 25, so I cannot comment on that

[Baconi]

Originally Posted by omg_pwnasaurus

For me, the most noticable issue with the AI (or at least the CPU to CPU trade algorithms) has been the weird need for the team that is dealing the rental player at the deadline to also include a top prospect in the deal.

I see a ton of deals that are

high priced veteran (but decent player) rental + top 100 prospect for average young player.

I'm not clear why the CPU always includes a prospect who is objectively better than the one they are receiving in exchange for the veteran. It's very odd to me and it is constant.

Like just remove that part of the equation? vet for decent prospect at the deadline, done deal. Why is there some need to add a huge prospect haul to the vet only making a few months salary on an expiring deal at the deadline? It never made sense to me.

Otherwise, I think most of the stuff I see makes quite a bit of sense and immersion works well at least for my setup. YMMV, etc.

Edit: I also see CPU to CPU trades happen that would have never happened if I proposed them, likely because trading difficulty is high? I'm fine with that since it levels the playing field a bit if I'm not able to get those kinds of deals but still the CPU dealing a 4 star prospect to itself for an average, overpriced reliever when I couldn't even get the 40th man on the roster for this type of player, kind of seems weird as well.

^^^This. I can generally live with the other AI grievances but these kinds of trades absolutely kill immersion in my fictional leagues. A lot of the best players that change the course of their team's fortunes are acquired in trades like this and it doesn't feel interesting or satisfying at all. If it's not fixed, then an option to veto any CPU-CPU trade in Commissioner mode would be good.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by JRRose

I only started playing at the end of 25, so I cannot comment on that

That's all right. I have made my decision. This comes to an end, and 25 is it.

[rwd59]

It is not new.

[Carplos]

The constant signing and releasing of minor leaguers like that has been around for at least a decade.

If it's for some reason not possible to stop with all the other AI logic that needs to be there, even an option to say a player can't be signed by more than x times in a league per season would be helpful.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Not really seeing this in my game on either the free agent signings or rental trades that include prospects on the MLB level. Maybe because mine is a mature game that has imported from version to version and is fictional by attrition? FWIW I do play out all games and check the "MLB all transactions" report daily, reviewing all player movement/trades.

I do think there is more minor league transaction turmoil than in the past. I've wondered if that is due to the development team trying to improve how teams build their minor league clubs? IE with the new "improved coding" the minor league clubs are "always looking" to improve (maybe every day?) and making changes that are marginally better at best. This is only SPECULATION on my part, but if true perhaps computer teams could be coded to be less likely to make marginal improvements? Instead be "happy" with the team they have built unless something MUCH better comes along? Minor league management, IIRC, was listed as being something they worked a lot on for v26. Like any coding I'm sure it will be improved on year to year.

Starting my second season I need to add to my quoted post.

My first season was started shortly after release so the game was probably only on patch two or three. I was not seeing the type of sign and release described in this thread. However as I am starting season two I am seeing the type of sign and release described here at the minor league level.

Tons of signings during ST, which I could write off as invite to camp, doesn't impress, and released. Might not look great on a player's history but in my mind acceptable if rosters settled down once the season started. 15 games into my new season and hitting mid-April and the "all transactions" report is showing rosters are not "settling" and the daily report is still huge. Just pulling one day and comparing season one to season two..

April 18, 2047: 17 transactions, 6 MiLB signings, 5 releases. The other 6 are same as 2048, ie putting on IL or international signings.

April 18, 2048: 63 transactions, 22 MiLB signings, 35 releases. The other 6 are putting on IL or signing discovered international players. This is not a one day happening, but is consistent on a day to day basis.


Interesting both seasons show consistency with 6 misc. transactions. While MiLB sign and release ballooned. Something must have happened in one of the late patches. I had completed most of my season before the last two or three patches were released and installed by Steam in my game.

My August 2047 transactions (pre late patches) show normal flow and are comparable to my August 2046 transactions that come from v25 imported game. My Sept 2047 transactions did balloon and were post patch.

Matt posted somewhere they are looking at one more patch. This is something that is now way off and needs to be fixed and at least rolled back to previous levels.

[Paul Reuschel's Mustache]

Originally Posted by Sweed

15 games into my new season and hitting mid-April and the "all transactions" report is showing rosters are not "settling" and the daily report is still huge.

Matt posted somewhere they are looking at one more patch. This is something that is now way off and needs to be fixed and at least rolled back to previous levels.

Thanks for confirming that you are also seeing this.

It's October. Seven months after release. Seven patches.

I don't even bother looking at the Complete Transaction Log anymore because it's mostly just teams signing and releasing minor league players every single day throughout the entire season.

Meanwhile, there's radio silence from the main OOTP team here on the forum.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Paul Reuschel's Mustache

Thanks for confirming that you are also seeing this.

It's October. Seven months after release. Seven patches.

I don't even bother looking at the Complete Transaction Log anymore because it's mostly just teams signing and releasing minor league players every single day throughout the entire season.

Meanwhile, there's radio silence from the main OOTP team here on the forum.

Happy to do it once I saw the issue. Unfortunately due to the timing of my game it wasn't in my face until I started my next season.

I can't speak for others, but for me it was one of those patches that caused the MiLB sign/release problem. Before the last couple of patches I was seeing 5 to 6 MiLB sign/release over five league levels, 150 teams. Acceptable to me, other's mileage may vary.
IMHO it was working fine before (again, YMMV), so shouldn't be hard to fix.

Matt posted this four days ago.. https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...03#post5217303

I did post a link to this thread in the thread where Matt posted. I would prefer
the team would respond somewhere in one of these threads. I'll settle for them being aware and having a fix in the upcoming patch.

[johndoe8865]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Happy to do it once I saw the issue. Unfortunately due to the timing of my game it wasn't in my face until I started my next season.

I can't speak for others, but for me it was one of those patches that caused the MiLB sign/release problem. Before the last couple of patches I was seeing 5 to 6 MiLB sign/release over five league levels, 150 teams. Acceptable to me, other's mileage may vary.
IMHO it was working fine before (again, YMMV), so shouldn't be hard to fix.

Matt posted this four days ago.. https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...03#post5217303


I did post a link to this thread in the thread where Matt posted. I would prefer
the team would respond somewhere in one of these threads. I'll settle for them being aware and having a fix in the upcoming patch.

Kind of a make or break patch IMO if you're looking at 27 for the single player game. Can't have much confidence in next year when this year the game was seemingly degraded with patches as the season went on.

I am wondering if it's possible to go back and re-install older builds from 26 and try to isolate which patch specifically started the sign and release madness.

[koohead]

I would be interested to hear feedback from others that have more than 1 (or even two) years of a save regarding the number of transactions. Even with an imported save, the "AI" is overhauled every year so what made sense in terms of roster construction in OOTP24 or 25 will not make sense for Computer ran teams in 26. There will be a ton of transactions as the new player evaluation logic works itself out. This may be a year long process...or even 2 years as players develop (or not) in the minors and the computer makes decisions based on what it perceives to be available in FA and subsequent drafts. When I imported into 25, there were a ton of transactions. It worked itself out after 3 years though. I'm on year 2 in 26...first year I did see a bunch. year 2 has not been as bad but only halfway through the year and not at the draft yet.