What's going on with FHM11?

[DGaliullin]

Ok, it's going to be one long speech.

I've been buying this series since FHM8 came out. Regular players know that trades with other teams in NHL always been an issue in this game. For instance: You literally couldn't trade for 1st round pick of any team, but as soon as they choose some prospect - you could manage took him from that team relatively cheap. Good young players always appeared on waivers. In 2-3 seasons I used to have whole D core from waived players. Teams constantly lapse signing rights for players with 4-4.5 potential, players eligible for draft getting much worse after year 3-4...

And I read in promo that FHM11 tried to fix AI this year.

I finally managed to sit and have a prolonged first session with this game. It's summer 2024 and trades that already happened:
TML trades Woll to PIT for Letang. (very unrealistic, but ok) and after that swaps Letang to FLA for Rodiguez and 7th (Why on earth FLA could want that?). FLA trades Ekbald (since they got ancient Letang I guess) to DET for Husso (!) and sends him to AHL (why??). DAL trade Back to EDM for Pedersen and after 2 weeks they trade back same deal. And to finish list, SJS deals 1st round 2025 from Vegas to Detroit for Patrick Kane (rebuilding team trades 1st rounder for old star, sure).

With that, I closed a game and not planning to open it again. Thanks on working with AI and making it worse, I guess. I understand that game developer is small studio and not many people work on that game. But I hope they understand one day, that with small resources they got, they waste it in wrong direction. I predict that they will introduce WHL sooner than teams like SJS stop trading it's 1st rounders...

They introduce extended college systems, some historical seasons and stuff, when 90% players I'm sure play ONLY in NHL (like me) and will not even experience their work. What they will experience is stupid AI decisions, unrealistic trades, future stars on waivers and Free Agency etc. I understand that all CBA rules in NHL quite complicated and it's hard to make AI work ideally. But man... I feel like it's getting even worse year after year.

You audience are hockey geeks/nerds who want to experience Manager duties. They want to make playoff finally with BUF, rebuild MTL, experience one last run for Kopitar, play for their favorite team or player after all, maybe even win Stanley cup with TOR for crying out loud... And that kind of unrealistic behavior literally kills all the mood and experience. You promote yourself as a game with NHL license and completely waste it.

Thanks for all hours I played that game, but I'm already done with FHM11 and not buying next version until I see feedbacks that AI got much better. Hope developers turn their heads in right direction and start working on main leagues experience instead of working on minor leagues, expanding players database and making game only slower.

[artlan]

Originally Posted by DGaliullin

Ok, it's going to be one long speech.

I've been buying this series since FHM8 came out. Regular players know that trades with other teams in NHL always been an issue in this game. For instance: You literally couldn't trade for 1st round pick of any team, but as soon as they choose some prospect - you could manage took him from that team relatively cheap. Good young players always appeared on waivers. In 2-3 seasons I used to have whole D core from waived players. Teams constantly lapse signing rights for players with 4-4.5 potential, players eligible for draft getting much worse after year 3-4...

And I read in promo that FHM11 tried to fix AI this year.

I finally managed to sit and have a prolonged first session with this game. It's summer 2024 and trades that already happened:
TML trades Woll to PIT for Letang. (very unrealistic, but ok) and after that swaps Letang to FLA for Rodiguez and 7th (Why on earth FLA could want that?). FLA trades Ekbald (since they got ancient Letang I guess) to DET for Husso (!) and sends him to AHL (why??). DAL trade Back to EDM for Pedersen and after 2 weeks they trade back same deal. And to finish list, SJS deals 1st round 2025 from Vegas to Detroit for Patrick Kane (rebuilding team trades 1st rounder for old star, sure).

With that, I closed a game and not planning to open it again. Thanks on working with AI and making it worse, I guess. I understand that game developer is small studio and not many people work on that game. But I hope they understand one day, that with small resources they got, they waste it in wrong direction. I predict that they will introduce WHL sooner than teams like SJS stop trading it's 1st rounders...

They introduce extended college systems, some historical seasons and stuff, when 90% players I'm sure play ONLY in NHL (like me) and will not even experience their work. What they will experience is stupid AI decisions, unrealistic trades, future stars on waivers and Free Agency etc. I understand that all CBA rules in NHL quite complicated and it's hard to make AI work ideally. But man... I feel like it's getting even worse year after year.

You audience are hockey geeks/nerds who want to experience Manager duties. They want to make playoff finally with BUF, rebuild MTL, experience one last run for Kopitar, play for their favorite team or player after all, maybe even win Stanley cup with TOR for crying out loud... And that kind of unrealistic behavior literally kills all the mood and experience. You promote yourself as a game with NHL license and completely waste it.

Thanks for all hours I played that game, but I'm already done with FHM11 and not buying next version until I see feedbacks that AI got much better. Hope developers turn their heads in right direction and start working on main leagues experience instead of working on minor leagues, expanding players database and making game only slower.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again, as someone who has purchased every single iteration of FHM, I don't understand why we need gimmicky features (owner goals, 4 nations, college management, room chemistry and many others) to be added to the game when the core management experience is quite underwhelming and has not seen major improvements in a number of years now.

I wish there was more attention given to the basics of the game but my feedback has fallen on deaf ears.

I don't mean this to be a criticism, but rather constructive feedback from a longtime FHM fan and purchaser, and a diehard hockey fan.

[renojedi]

As another person who has purchased this game every year since it came out, I can agree with some of the sentiments of this thread.

The thing that is most troublesome to me is that the only license they have is for the NHL so why does the NHL game have legacy issues that are unresolved or rules that are not fully implemented while new leagues/features are added or worked on?

I get that they are trying to entice new purchases and I guess the marketing research shows there are not a lot of people who want to buy a game that is just an improved version of last year but I am not sure trying to be all things to all people and having a bunch of leagues and features that are not fully fleshed out is better.

If I were king for a day, first priority would be making the NHL as realistic as possible, make the sim engine outputs as realistic as possible, and then make the 2D simulator UI as realistic as possible since they have said classic is going away at some point. Then, if there is time, work on all the rest. A rising tide will lift all boats and those changes will affect so much in the other leagues people play.

Yes, this is going to come off as critical of the game, but I have been here since the start and will likely remain here as long as the game exists. At the end of the day, I understand the limitations of the game based upon resources so it is not enough for me to stop playing. But since the board is for unsolicited opinions, that is mine.

[GMO123]

"I wish there was more attention given to the basics of the game"

Yes, good game with lots of potential but the basics should work correctly before other features are added.

[GMO123]

Maybe have a poll where FHM11 customers are specifically asked what their priorities are, and where the FHM11 team should focus their efforts?

[Savoie45]

While I agree that the trades are a bit ridiculous at the moment, I don't think this was the intention. I'm not going to bash the developers for trying to fix something and it going left.

" I don't understand why we need gimmicky features (owner goals, 4 nations, college management, room chemistry and many others) to be added to the game when the core management experience is quite underwhelming and has not seen major improvements in a number of years now."

Those "gimmicky" features are to increase immersion and to also help draw in new fans. Do you know how many Steam reviews say this years game just FHM 10? If they added no new features, there would get even less people buying the new version. The game doesn't sell high volumes as is due to be a niche product. It doesn't really need help.

[redtiger7]

Originally Posted by Savoie45

Those "gimmicky" features are to increase immersion and to also help draw in new fans. Do you know how many Steam reviews say this years game just FHM 10? If they added no new features, there would get even less people buying the new version. The game doesn't sell high volumes as is due to be a niche product. It doesn't really need help.

I guess the questions to ask are: how many people buy the game because it now has owner goals? And: How many people stop buying because the core basics are problematic and not being fixed?

[3z4rivyirn]

Every year I hope for some significant focus on what I consider the main game which is the NHL and closely related leagues but it never happens. Criticism falls on deaf ears. Now there is a relatively decent competitor in HLM and it’s only $5 a year.

Being completely honest, I’m quite happy the game is getting more negative reviews this year and people speaking out. The thought of the game failing doesn’t excite me however I feel that reality is the only way these developers are going to clean up the main areas of the game.

Sure all the extra features could add to the game but when the same issues and complaints are being made every year and nothing seemingly changes, you’re going to lose your player base that just wants a solid functioning NHL and related development leagues to function.

There are a few people who constantly seem to defend the game but I ask those individuals, have you tried the competition so you can make a valid comparison?

[3z4rivyirn]

Originally Posted by Savoie45

While I agree that the trades are a bit ridiculous at the moment, I don't think this was the intention. I'm not going to bash the developers for trying to fix something and it going left.

" I don't understand why we need gimmicky features (owner goals, 4 nations, college management, room chemistry and many others) to be added to the game when the core management experience is quite underwhelming and has not seen major improvements in a number of years now."

Those "gimmicky" features are to increase immersion and to also help draw in new fans. Do you know how many Steam reviews say this years game just FHM 10? If they added no new features, there would get even less people buying the new version. The game doesn't sell high volumes as is due to be a niche product. It doesn't really need help.

HLM now has more players than FHM and they don’t add those gimmicky features. They also fix reported bugs extremely quickly.

Have you tried both and compared the two? If FHM doesn’t fix what the playerbase has been complaining about for years, they’re going to continue losing players to the competition which is now a viable alternative

[Savoie45]

Originally Posted by 3z4rivyirn

HLM now has more players than FHM and they don’t add those gimmicky features. They also fix reported bugs extremely quickly.

Have you tried both and compared the two? If FHM doesn’t fix what the playerbase has been complaining about for years, they’re going to continue losing players to the competition which is now a viable alternative

HLM is a great game indeed and I can't say about player counts, though it wouldn't surprise if HLM has more because it was a mobile game for years before being ported to pc. Every sports franchise has its pros and cons. There are some things one game does better, and some another game might do better. I play them all really, because I love hockey.

These developers work hard to fix issues with this game so I'm not going to knock them for issues that might still exist. Not all issues can necessarily be fixed as easy as others Sure it would be great if they could just wave their wands and fix every issue that irritates the players.

They also try to add content and features to the game that people ask for. Owner goals was one of them and has been for some time. They also added the AHL to historical which has been long requested.

I can empatize with both sides of the fence really, but probably more with the developers because I don't know what they go through in terms of the development process. They get a lot of flack though from the consumer and I don't feel some of it very fair.

[Savoie45]

Originally Posted by redtiger7

I guess the questions to ask are: how many people buy the game because it now has owner goals? And: How many people stop buying because the core basics are problematic and not being fixed?

Probably not many, because most aren't as critical as evident by the reviews on Steam. The franchise has been around for years and has only seemingly grown in popularity rather than shrunk. Sports gamers are finicky, but they're also stubborn and typically don't stop playing their favorite sports games despite the issues that might exist year to year. I'd say more probably stop buying the game every year because there isn't enough change to warrant the purchase.

[pavel1]

Thank you OP for speaking the truth. Last time I said something similar my post got locked by admin.

I could say more but I don't want to give admin the pleasure to censor again.

[Iceman90]

There is a need to both iterate and innovate. With another game that I play that releases yearly, they seem to have an iterative game release (mostly fixing features from the past) on the odd numbered years, and an innovative game (adding new features) on the even. Maybe FHM should do the same.

[tomkmb]

Competition benefits the consumer, as we've seen with a monopoly on console sports games, it leads nowhere good.

I hope both games are able to prosper and offer something slightly different from each other to their consumer base - there is no reason they cannot co-exist and we must be careful that our enthusiasm for the product of our dreams doesn't contribute to strangulating what, in reality, is a niche product made by people who are powered by passion for the project and the sport and not money.

[renojedi]

Originally Posted by Iceman90

There is a need to both iterate and innovate. With another game that I play that releases yearly, they seem to have an iterative game release (mostly fixing features from the past) on the odd numbered years, and an innovative game (adding new features) on the even. Maybe FHM should do the same.

Great idea. And with so much that can be worked on, I think they can market even the iterative years as new, and innovative. I would hope sales would be at least the same, if not more if they advertised things like over X number of changes to 2D sim, new ways to evaluate tactics, more intuitive UI, AI that will offer the most realistic challenge yet, over X bug fixes for a more enjoyable playing experience, fastest simulation engine to date, etc.)

[jcard]

I would add that the continued absence of basic QoL features is a large reason I could not continue to support the game. Things like mass select, customizable tables, etc.—these are basically just database functions, for what is essentially a spreadsheet application. Moreover, OOTP, though not perfect, DOES incorporate many of these capabilities. It is hard to move beyond the fact that with the experience, if not in-house, at least house-adjacent and the fact that such additions can be made irrespective of any real-life hockey season schedule constraints or licensing issues, no substantive progress along these lines have been made.

[Swedishgamefreak]

Originally Posted by renojedi

Great idea. And with so much that can be worked on, I think they can market even the iterative years as new, and innovative. I would hope sales would be at least the same, if not more if they advertised things like over X number of changes to 2D sim, new ways to evaluate tactics, more intuitive UI, AI that will offer the most realistic challenge yet, over X bug fixes for a more enjoyable playing experience, fastest simulation engine to date, etc.)

100% agree! I know a lot of people that have looked at FHM and said that the menus looks boring. Even Jeff said a couple of years ago that he still thinks the game looks like a spreadsheet. Still it looks the same, a lot of the bugs are the same (the free agents issue where players stay as free agents has been around for a couple of years now and i have brought it up here lots of time but never got a response from Jeff about it), the 2D engine is basically the same since the addition of it (with of course some smaller features but i want better movement from the players because it still looks so stiff and slow)

I know that there is just a small team working on the game. I am fully aware of that and I have bought it since the first game and I will keep buying the game. But I would lie if i said that I think the game gets big improvements every year. From what I understand though is that HLM have a smaller team and still gets bigger features every year plus it's cheaper.

[Savoie45]

Originally Posted by Swedishgamefreak

100% agree! I know a lot of people that have looked at FHM and said that the menus looks boring. Even Jeff said a couple of years ago that he still thinks the game looks like a spreadsheet. Still it looks the same, a lot of the bugs are the same (the free agents issue where players stay as free agents has been around for a couple of years now and i have brought it up here lots of time but never got a response from Jeff about it), the 2D engine is basically the same since the addition of it (with of course some smaller features but i want better movement from the players because it still looks so stiff and slow)

I know that there is just a small team working on the game. I am fully aware of that and I have bought it since the first game and I will keep buying the game. But I would lie if i said that I think the game gets big improvements every year. From what I understand though is that HLM have a smaller team and still gets bigger features every year plus it's cheaper.

Define bigger features?

[Colorado]

Yeah, I agree with the general consensus here and I feel it's completely acceptable to constructively criticise aspects of the game, especially as most of us posting here will support the game each year and appreciate it's a small dev team.

Adding historical AHL etc is nice and no do doubt a lot of work went into it, but I'd far prefer that time being invested into QOL improvements and better UI design.

I hope the Devs see this thread as being constructive and appreciative, and take note of what the game's core fans are suggesting.

[Swedishgamefreak]

Originally Posted by Savoie45

Define bigger features?

Okay since you asked I can take HLM as an example since that is also a small game and even a smaller game compared to FHM. From what I understand HLM 19 was the first game.
HLM 20 added: New scouting engine, play by play, injuries, roster editor and records as big features.
HLM 21: Dark theme, retired jerseys, fantasy draft, World Cup and World Juniors, Minor leagues, coaches, roster sharing, progression system, challenges, Chemistry, generated faces, trade block and salary retention
HLM 22: Draft event (clearly inspired from EA NHL), History Mode, Junior Leagues, Waivers, League expansion.
HLM 23: Custom Leagues, Preseason, Trade Deadline event (inspired from EA NHL), Staff and specialties, Awards show, Conditional picks.
HLM 24: Player attributes, Live shot map, Families (players gets a kid that gets added in future draft classes), Free Agency event, rivalries, milestones. Also got a PC port.
HLM 25: Hall of fame, Contract clauses, Three team trades, Training, Inbox.

I know FHM already has a lot of these things but I just wanted to show you the year to year improvements on that game. FHM used to be good at having good improvements every year but for the last couple of years it wasn't as big improvements. When FHM added the 2D engine, it was a huge new feature that we could see big potential in. But I just think the 2D engine has not improved that much over these years.

2D engine: It is very slow and stiff in the movements. There are still issues that has been there for years (players skating to their own zone to wait for the puck to cross the line for a icing call). Pretty much the same type of goals every game. I know Jeff said that there are some changes coming to the 2D engine in next update and I'm very excited to see that. Jeff has said in the past that the 2D engine will be the one they will focus on now and that the classic engine will go away in the future so there has to be some improvements there.

Draft, trade deadline and free agency: The big 3 events for a GM. Right now, these are boring in the game. Needs to be more immersion. Maybe add the ability for the AI to make trades during these events. Add a clock (I know it's not for everyone but we have robotic play by play voice and option to control the players actions in games so why not add this too?).

Scouting: More in depth scouting and scouting reports. Scouting is so basic right now, even more basic then it used to be when you could assign scouts to follow leagues all season. Needs more information on the scouting reports.

Training: Also very basic right now.

UI: Needs big improvements. It has looked the same for years and is boring to look at. Maybe add more visuals like how the PP looks like. Who will stand in front of the goalie to screen him? PP lineups screen is confusing and I heard the same thing for a lot of people.

I'm not saying that the features they added this year is bad. They fixed the draft classes, they added development progression screen, owner goals, minor leagues in historical mode which is awesome. But I just wished they gave the players more immersion in the things that i said earlier. This year they also raised the price a little bit which is fine but I hope we get to see bigger stuff added to the game soon. Like colorado said, it's just constructive feedback. It's nothing personal against Jeff and the other people in the team.