Historical Ratings Problem

[Trav876]

Also, how does this explain someone like Lamar Rogers who was a career minor leaguer in real life (so he was also imported with "neutralized ratings" in this same sim), but he imported properly/realistically with good speed due to being a good base stealer in real life minors?

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by Trav876

OK. I hadn't ever noticed this in past versions, is that new? Is there any plan to work on that?

Kinda disappointing because the Neutralized stats supposedly help make ratings import more realistically (unless I am understanding it incorrectly) particularly with teams like the Colorado Rockies who are in an extreme hitters park. Neutralized stats then would allow the pitchers who pitched that year in Colorado to avoid getting imported with very bad ratings, since the ballparks in the game are already weighted realistically (so the pitchers will already struggle more due to the park factors. Without neutralized ratings it would make it kind of a double-whammy...as they're pitching in an extreme hitters park and additionally are imported without ratings being neutralized). And then of course the flip side for hitters.

I know it's just for minor leaguers but if someone is trying to play the game with minor leaguers, they'd have to choose between either NOT playing with minors, or not using the Neutralized option

The default ratings import will neutralize based on the in-game park factors. The Neutralized stats import based on a separate algorithm. There may be some cases where there will be larger differences, but the base stats are still adjusted at least a little to account for Coors and stuff like that

[Trav876]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The default ratings import will neutralize based on the in-game park factors. The Neutralized stats import based on a separate algorithm. There may be some cases where there will be larger differences, but the base stats are still adjusted at least a little to account for Coors and stuff like that

Do you know, do the ratings import based on the DEFAULT in-game park factors? I ask because 1993 in the game is (unrealistically) not much of a hitters park actually, (it was Mile High Stadium in real life, which was as much of a hitters park as Coors Field, but in the game it doesn't know this). So I always go in and manually change the park factors after the sim is set up... but then that would be the "double whammy" if player ratings are importing based on the default in-game park factors.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by Trav876

Do you know, do the ratings import based on the DEFAULT in-game park factors? I ask because 1993 in the game is (unrealistically) not much of a hitters park actually, (it was Mile High Stadium in real life, which was as much of a hitters park as Coors Field, but in the game it doesn't know this). So I always go in and manually change the park factors after the sim is set up... but then that would be the "double whammy" if player ratings are importing based on the default in-game park factors.

I just lived this question. For the NeL mod, I had gone into my personal version and assigned NeL players added to the Master.csv to particular teams. These teams were the 1961/62 expansion teams pulled earlier in time (by editing the Teams.csv). BUT, I had neglected to put a ballpark for the pulled-forward in time version of these teams and the game made ballparks for me out of necessity. All of which defaulted to park factors not of 1.0 but of 0.5. As a result, all the NeL players that came in had over-powered initial hitting ratings to get to their Real Stat lines in an 0.5 extreme pitcher's park.

So, I learned that the import of players with Real Stats takes the stat lines and looks to the ballpark.txt file and adjusts them for the factors. How much, I don't know, but in my extreme case, it was a lot. If you are editing something, edit the era_ballpark.txt file to account for the initial player load is my lesson learned. Do that before creating the game. That file is used by all saves though, so whatever you do will be retained (unless a patch overwrites it).

I'm curious what Matt says, and I posted a bug on default 0.5 park factors for missing ballparks. But I wanted to pass along my recent direct experience with imports and ballparks.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

I just lived this question. For the NeL mod, I had gone into my personal version and assigned NeL players added to the Master.csv to particular teams. These teams were the 1961/62 expansion teams pulled earlier in time (by editing the Teams.csv). BUT, I had neglected to put a ballpark for the pulled-forward in time version of these teams and the game made ballparks for me out of necessity. All of which defaulted to park factors not of 1.0 but of 0.5. As a result, all the NeL players that came in had over-powered initial hitting ratings to get to their Real Stat lines in an 0.5 extreme pitcher's park.

So, I learned that the import of players with Real Stats takes the stat lines and looks to the ballpark.txt file and adjusts them for the factors. How much, I don't know, but in my extreme case, it was a lot. If you are editing something, edit the era_ballpark.txt file to account for the initial player load is my lesson learned. Do that before creating the game. That file is used by all saves though, so whatever you do will be retained (unless a patch overwrites it).

I'm curious what Matt says, and I posted a bug on default 0.5 park factors for missing ballparks. But I wanted to pass along my recent direct experience with imports and ballparks.

That is my understanding as well, though the manual did not really explain the issue of neutralization and database well. Basically:

Real Stats: unmodified actual statistics are imported and then neutralized by algorithm that uses the park factor file.

Neutralized Stats: the imported stats come from a database that has already been neutralized by some alternative method; no application of park factors file used.

* I cannot say for certain off the top of my head how or even if the league and era files are used each database.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by Trav876

Also, how does this explain someone like Lamar Rogers who was a career minor leaguer in real life (so he was also imported with "neutralized ratings" in this same sim), but he imported properly/realistically with good speed due to being a good base stealer in real life minors?

I am interested in the answer to this question. Thanks for following up on previous explanation that you received with a logical and lean test. As you present it, this case certainly seems to contradict the response you were given earlier.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by Trav876

Also, how does this explain someone like Lamar Rogers who was a career minor leaguer in real life (so he was also imported with "neutralized ratings" in this same sim), but he imported properly/realistically with good speed due to being a good base stealer in real life minors?

I'd think of the real vs. newt drop down menu as impacting only those with stat lines in the MLB database. Since Lamar has no such presence in that database at all, it reverts to the only way to being real minor leaguers in. With their real stats. So, this Lamar was in a save where players with MLB stats were neutralized but he is not among that set of players.

I know in a regular game, if I want to individually import a player, the newt option in the stats drop down grays out if I toggle the box to include players in the minor league database.

[Trav876]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

I'd think of the real vs. newt drop down menu as impacting only those with stat lines in the MLB database. Since Lamar has no such presence in that database at all, it reverts to the only way to being real minor leaguers in. With their real stats. So, this Lamar was in a save where players with MLB stats were neutralized but he is not among that set of players.

I know in a regular game, if I want to individually import a player, the newt option in the stats drop down grays out if I toggle the box to include players in the minor league database.

What about Carl Everett here? Imported into 1993, the start of this sim, as a minor leaguer (just like those other guys), but has good speed like he had in real life...

[Rain King]

Everett played in the majors for 20 PA in 1993, so would have an entry in the neutralized database.

[LansdowneSt]

Here's Carl in a strictly minor league season with your settings (1990) when he had 15 SB and 2 CS. Rain King makes the other point I was going to. So, Carl's no different than the other guys.

I don't know where you'd begin to get some of the data to calc newts for the minor leagues going back to 1914.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The default ratings import will neutralize based on the in-game park factors. The Neutralized stats import based on a separate algorithm. There may be some cases where there will be larger differences, but the base stats are still adjusted at least a little to account for Coors and stuff like that

I've been wondering and asking about this for years. Thanks for the answer.

Is this new for 25?