Talent Change Randomness

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Your posts crack me up. Wow, a 39 year old catcher. You must have been heartbroken. Not sure I would even bat an eye if a 39 year old Nolan Arenado couldn't play 3B at 39, But, a 32 year old Arenado becoming a red 20 at age 32, is a little more than I can stomach.

I'm off now to do some testing. Plan on testing for 744 hours straight,

Yeah actually I was. At 39 he still had a great bat and was a 60 Catcher Ability and 60 Arm and was rated a 65/65, until we switched to OOTP 25. But it was not RAH or Recalc that tanked him because we don't use them in this league!

That is the point I am trying to get across to you. It's not RAH or RECALC that are causing the issue of the tanked defense. If it was, and because we have RAH disabled in this historic online league, how can you explain why he went from a 60/60 catcher to a 25/25 catcher once we switched to OOTP 25? It was not RAH. That is all I am trying to get through to you. RAH is and was never the issue.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by twins_34

This right here is right "They had to change the way modern players aged" BUT this has nothing to do with RAH. RAH does not retire modern players and it does not age modern players. RAH only retires players according to their IRL Age when they retired. It USE to be the DATE they retired and that caused players to play into their 90's. Avoiding players playing into their 90's is what we fixed in the RAH.

your issue you are complaining about, which is a whole separate issue from RAH. This has to do with how the game handles itself once RECALC runs out or RECALC has no information to run on. Yes, the devs went a bit too aggressive on the scale of this defense reduction. It however was not part of the RAH system. It was designed to work with having RECALC ON and the player having no data to work off of. This regression would have happened, whether or not, RAH was ON or OFF.

This is what I am trying to explain. It has nothing to do with RAH. It has everything to do with how the game would handle a player, like a modern player, that the game has no recalc info on and no retirement info on. The devs had to come up with a system to try and figure out how to force these modern players, who have not retired, to retire. However it causes issues, like I said, when recalc was on and so was "miss seasons according to history" as well. Like when all the guys went off to war, and you had "miss seasons according to history" turned off, recalc has no info on them war time players and their defense also crashed UNLESS you have 5 year or 3 year recalc on. then of course the 2 or 3 years missed for war was ignored because recalc was not run.

But yeah, the devs needed a way to make people like Judge retire because RAH does not work on people that have never retired. The defense regression was a whole new system? Maybe? I dunno. You can make ask Garlon that question.

I only helped fix the issue of players like Nolan Ryan, Vida Blue, Kent Hrbek, Ken Griffey Jr. Cal Ripken Jr from playing until they were in their 90's THAT is all RAH does. RAH does not regress players. RAH has no development feature to it. It just sees that Nolan Ryan is 46 years old he needs to retire, Vida Blue is 36 years old he needs to retire, Kent Hrbek is 34 years old he needs to retire, Ken Griffey Jr. is 40 years old he needs to retire, and Cal Ripken Jr is 40 years old he needs to retire. And this very next off season, even if they are an 80/80 player, they will retire. THAT is all RAH does. Nothing more and nothing less. Before the change it would use "it is October 6 2001 We need to retire Cal Ripken Jr" and if he would show up in 1920, without recalc and dev engine on, he would have played until Oct 6th 2001. NOW he only plays until he is 40 and will retire. That's all that was changed and that is all RAH does.

The bold. They needed a way for guys like Betts, Judge, Arenado etc to age if folks weren't using a combo of recalc and the development engine. How do you know the changes they made had nothing to do with the severe decline in fielding ratings experienced by so many of the modern players that were out of recalc? I didn't say RAH was causing the problem. I said the changes they made to enable RAH with with random debut caused the problem. I'm probably wrong, but as you suggest, maybe Garlon knows.

I haven't tested it, because I'm not really all that interested in playing without the combo of recalc and development, but does your fix for guys not playing till their 90, actually result in them aging out with regression of talent, or do they simply repeat their last recalc seasons till the game gets bored with them? With a combo of recalc and development, I've had Koufax go till his late 30's and I've had him start getting hurt and be done around age 35 or 36, What I haven't had is Groundhog Day in which he goes all Kris Davis and simply has the same season over and over again.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Why should we use RAH when the game takes out other players early with career ending injuries? Why should we use miss seasons according to history when the game makes other players miss entire seasons with injuries?

I dunno, I dont use default OOTP settings for injuries and I just would not. In history, players played through injuries and that's how I set my historical leagues. Very Low for Long Injury and Low for short injury. Seems to play pretty well on them settings and I have not had a player lost for a season and no career ending injuries either. I also do not use RAH for my historical sims and I set my aging speeds down to .900 and my dev speeds to 1.100 and then aging target to Older.

I seem to have really nice looking seasons. I am also one that is more for the alternate world historical sims. No recalc and only use dev engine and new dev tools.

[Reed]

The revamped fielding ratings and RAH both came out at the same time so it may look like they are tied together but they are independent. The fielding took a big dive when reaching early 30s with development. Matt has indicated he has toned that down and it is more based on “body type”. Hopefully it works pretty good now but don’t know if anyone has tested it lately.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Reed

The revamped fielding ratings and RAH both came out at the same time so it may look like they are tied together but they are independent. The fielding took a big dive when reaching early 30s with development. Matt has indicated he has toned that down and it is more based on “body type”. Hopefully it works pretty good now but don’t know if anyone has tested it lately.

I think the issue here is everyone thinking I'm saying RAH caused the issue. I'm not. That being said, when the feature was announced, one of the first questions asked was in regards to how it would effect modern players that did not have a retirement date. We were told that modern players would continue to be active and regress according to age until they retired. So, a change had to be made to the game in order for this to happen. I'm simply saying that the change they made, could very easily have backfired. If it did, it could effect all players out of recalc, not just modern players out of recalc.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by David Watts

If it did, it could effect all players out of recalc, not just modern players out of recalc.

It actually did.

Also reason it was fixed really fast. Then they tweaked it a little bit more to make it just a bit slower after the first fix. Then it took a few more weeks, about, to fix the issue with players missing years and using 1 year recalc, where defense would crash, but both issues have been adjusted and fixed and you can also adjust them, by hand, by moving your ageing target age from default to older or much older and then can also adjust batter aging speed. There was also an issue with pitchers losing velo at a faster than normal rate but that was also caught and fixed.

But you have sat here all day long fighting with me over something that has been worked on and fixed. OOTP 25 is a whole new monster compared to 24 and below and just like some other versions that brough out big and new ideas. At least OOTP will fix their code... EA and Madden and even other AAA producers still have bugs in their game that make it just hard to swallow and even play, that have not been fixed in 10 years.

These Devs, they try and make things right as fast as they can figure out the issue and then code it in and they will even keep tweaking things when players state how "Yeah it still just is not right"

Has 25 kinda been one big beta? Yeah kinda because it has been a ground breaking new update to the game and things that have not been thought of since things like Random Debut has been created (like 80 year old players playing as 80/80's and not retiring) fixed and then finally putting in the hand of the user, a way to manipulate development, finally! Finally the end of the 75 /75FB, 65/65 Curveball, 20/75 Changeup (That never developed) that made some great looking pitchers glorified relief pitchers, is gone and over.

TBH the best beta group are the players that find any kind of bug after release. Sometimes, something just does not get stress test or all the testing it needs until it is thrown out in front of 30,000 people and BOOM! An unintended bug is found. I mean, it's not like you sit here for a year and never see a patch, at the start of the game they are done almost weekly unless it is a game breaking bug, then they fix it as fast as possible.

I mean for some people, I guess fixes just do not come fast enough.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Sometimes, something just does not get stress test or all the testing it needs until it is thrown out in front of 30,000 people and BOOM!

Kinda wondered how many copies of the game were sold. Looks like $1.2 million a year easily, depending on how many copies get sold at discount. Or are you just talking about how many people buy preorder? Lots of money there. Why is the company relying so heavily on volunteers?

I've heard PT generates more $ than the base game. Wow.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Kinda wondered how many copies of the game were sold. Looks like $1.2 million a year easily, depending on how many copies get sold at discount. Or are you just talking about how many people buy preorder? Lots of money there. Why is the company relying so heavily on volunteers?

I've heard PT generates more $ than the base game. Wow.

My first thought also. 1.2 mil sounds like a lot but how much does steam get? How much is a mlb license? Players license? Office space? Computers? Business license/taxes? Lawyer?
Parent company maybe left with 500-700 thousand but then they have to pay maybe 6-9 employees (including insurance, health care, retirement fund etc.) so not much “profit” left. I assume that a lot of their funds do come from PT though.
This is all just speculation and I don’t have a clue.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Reed

My first thought also. 1.2 mil sounds like a lot but how much does steam get? How much is a mlb license? Players license? Office space? Computers? Business license/taxes? Lawyer?
Parent company maybe left with 500-700 thousand but then they have to pay maybe 6-9 employees (including insurance, health care, retirement fund etc.) so not much “profit” left. I assume that a lot of their funds do come from PT though.
This is all just speculation and I don’t have a clue.

Don't have a clue? So the 30,000 people paying for the game so they can be beta testers was just a guess? And maybe it's 300,000?

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Don't have a clue? So the 30,000 people paying for the game so they can be beta testers was just a guess? And maybe it's 300,000?

Yeah that was just a guess by me. I have no idea how many people play or buy the game. However, you need to understand, some times bugs do not show up until the game is under actual play. There are not many beta testers and they are not going to catch everything! Some players play totally different from the norm and they end up finding bugs that just would never have been noticed.

That is why more bugs are found the few months after release because there are way more eyes on the game. It happens to ALL games. madden, MLBTS, NBA2K, etc. Why would OOTP be any different? Code is code and sometimes it needs a stress test to find code that just works wonky.

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Don't have a clue? So the 30,000 people paying for the game so they can be beta testers was just a guess? And maybe it's 300,000?

: ))))))))))))))))))))))))
lol yes year 25 and we are beta testing still.
This game has so much potential.

It is time suck that i can't afford anymore.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

: ))))))))))))))))))))))))
lol yes year 25 and we are beta testing still.
This game has so much potential.

It is time suck that i can't afford anymore.

I've been thinking about plugging my OOTP 11 DVD into my XP computer and playing that version. A couple theories behind that. One being that it will be more satisfying since my expectations are lower, and that with fewer features there are fewer things that can be broken.

[Recte44]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I've been thinking about plugging my OOTP 11 DVD into my XP computer and playing that version. A couple theories behind that. One being that it will be more satisfying since my expectations are lower, and that with fewer features there are fewer things that can be broken.

I think that's probably a great idea for anyone who had the most fun on that version.

[Brad K]

Playing OOTP 11 now and seeing the potential of the game would show how much of that potential was wiped out by development. Or is it TCR that did it? LOL.

[Bill Veeck]

Originally Posted by twins_34

(re SBs) If there is an issue let Garlon know or report it to the Devs. For what I understand from all the tests Garlon does, his data for historical games has been amazing for what he has reported. BUT if you think there is something wrong, let the devs know with data you have that shows it is "however far off from reality"

Also on top of that, running with only the development engine is NOT going to give you historic numbers. If you want historic numbers then just run recalc. From what Matt says, Recalc and the Dev Engine were never really made to work well with each other and he has said that many times through the years.

There definitely is an issue with the development engine leveling out stolen bases so no one develops into a premium base stealer. While the number of total steals remained constant in a test of 1961-1967 TCR=1 had a record over 7 seasons of 45 SBs, TCR=100 had 42, TCR=200 had 48, 1yr recalc had 92.

Just 1 test of 7 years for each but the actual leader for those 7 years was Wills with almost 400 in IRL, and just over 300 in 1yr recalc, but TCR=1 Wills had 170, TCR=100 Wills had 188 and TCR=200 Al Weis 264. TCR 200.

TCR 200 has plenty of randomness but not an excessive amount it appears. Al Weis became someone very. valuable. Bob Hendley as a pitcher went from 2.6fWAR IRL to 33.2 over those 7 years - 10th best in MLB. Bob Bailey went from 9.8fWAR IRL to TCR1=34.4, TCR100=29.7, TCR200=51.7, 1yr recalc=2.2.

Of course with free agency in these and "normal" settings across the board players played in different parks. But FWIW stolen bases were much more evenly distributed by the dev engine as if great base stealers and that era had Brock, Wills, Campaneris etc, never developed or others. Al Weis somewhat being an exception. IRL he had 48.

How much of this is due to dev engine being locked into initial ratings of 1961? Probably a lot. The other thing noticed that was somewhat awry was how much earlier players entered and became regulars before their actual playing days. All this with the build before 25.9.90.

This was my first experience with the development engine being a long-term fan of recalc

[mytreds]

Not sure where you’re getting 30,000 from. According to SteamCharts, peak player count was 1,751 2 months ago; the average player count is between 1k-1.2k. I know people buy from the ootp site, but those numbers are still pretty low.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by mytreds

Not sure where you’re getting 30,000 from. According to SteamCharts, peak player count was 1,751 2 months ago; the average player count is between 1k-1.2k. I know people buy from the ootp site, but those numbers are still pretty low.

It's called a guess. I can tell you there are 30k users on reddit. The numbers on steam don't show all the actual sales. Markus already stated it's well over the 1k that steam shows. Plus all I did was threw out a number. It could be 15k it could be 20k it could be 75k. We don't know. It was more to the point of 30 beta testers can't stress test a game. Beta testers don't play the game in all the different ways that all end users do. I mean you act like OOTP should be 100% perfect out of the box where where any other AAA game just gets a pass? Madden, MLBTS, WoW, they all find more of their bugs AFTER the game is released and it under goes it's first stress test. OOTP is no different.