Talent Change Randomness

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by David Watts

If your a big "development engine guy" please get the developers to take a look at stolen bases. I just played a historical league with historical minors from 1961-1966. Recalc disabled, 100 per cent development engine. TCR set to 1. Overall it was amazing how great the game plays this way. Tons of fun. But, then I started looking at stolen bases. From 61-66 the most stolen bases by an individual was 39. Most season finshed with a league leader below 30. I was up to June 10th or so when I quit playing and Maury Wills and Lou Brock only had 2 steals each. League totals for steals were right on the money. But, the steals were being spread across the entire league, instead of having a few indidiual standouts. Silly.

Why do I have to do it? If there is an issue let Garlon know or report it to the Devs. For what I understand from all the tests Garlon does, his data for historical games has been amazing for what he has reported. BUT if you think there is something wrong, let the devs know with data you have that shows it is "however far off from reality"

Also on top of that, running with only the development engine is NOT going to give you historic numbers. If you want historic numbers then just run recalc. From what Matt says, Recalc and the Dev Engine were never really made to work well with each other and he has said that many times through the years.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by twins_34

The ONLY reason these were used together was to make players retire when their recalc ran out because, like I said, players (Let's say Cal Ripken Jr.) comes into the league in a random debut in 1920, he would never retire. Well I figured out the reason, and Matt fixed that reason! Player were set to retire according to the DATE of their retirement. So Cal would play until he was 81 years old (1920-2001). Well using the Development Engine when recalc ran out would regress players enough to force them to retire. Well, now that's no longer matters. The way players retire has been changed to "around" their age of retirement. So, Cal will retire when he gets around 40 years old so around 1940.

This was the ONLY reason all the old timer OOTP players, that play random Debut, would run both system together. You no longer have to anymore and you can play it just using recalc if you want or if you want development on, you can just do development. But the WHGLE reason the Dev Engine was used was to force retire players once recalc ran out of actual data.

Did that fix also cause the bug that ruined modern players out of recalc, due to their defensive ratings going straight into the tank. If so, thanks. Pretty much sealed the deal for me that I will never buy the game again until September or later. Not going to beta test till July or August, while changes that weren't well thought out ruin the game. Then again, folks that never play random debut, probably shouldn't be getting silly suggestions granted either.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I think the default and replay options both default to retire/miss seasons according to history.

Only Replay has miss seasons according to history as Replay is a total hands off, complete re-sim of history. that's also why the patches were made just recently for default. Because the game was crashing players defense when they would miss years and recalc could not recalc it. Now if you did 5 year recalc you didnt notice this and very random on 3 year but on 1 year, it caused issues so, the Devs fixed this issue in a patch BUT miss years according to history is off by default in Default Mode and on for Replay Mode.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Only Replay has miss seasons according to history as Replay is a total hands off, complete re-sim of history. that's also why the patches were made just recently for default. Because the game was crashing players defense when they would miss years and recalc could not recalc it. Now if you did 5 year recalc you didnt notice this and very random on 3 year but on 1 year, it caused issues so, the Devs fixed this issue in a patch BUT miss years according to history is off by default in Default Mode and on for Replay Mode.

Where do you come up with this stuff? I had a random using 5 year recalc. Xander Boegaerts was a DH by age 31 with red 20 fielding ratings. It was July when this was discovered. It took weeks for it to be fixed(if it was fixed). I'm not a tester, so I should know soon.

Thing is, the RAH was added with zero testing. Someone that doesn't play random debut decided to suggest it and with no thought they ruined random debut for the first 4 months of the OOTP25. That's pure crap.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Did that fix also cause the bug that ruined modern players out of recalc, due to their defensive ratings going straight into the tank. If so, thanks. Pretty much sealed the deal for me that I will never buy the game again until September or later. Not going to beta test till July or August, while changes that weren't well thought out ruin the game. Then again, folks that never play random debut, probably shouldn't be getting silly suggestions granted either.

TBH I have no idea. Because you stated you play with Dev Engine and recalc. However, the issue with defense has been game wide and was starting aggressively around the age of regression, roughly 28-32 when players start to regress due to age. For what I understand that was toned down but from my understanding, yeah the defense regression in 25 was to force players, who were in their late 30's to early 40's to retire, If they didnt have recalc numbers, but the Dev's did see it was too aggressive and they did fix it quite quickly. But the defense regression had nothing to do with when players retired by age over date. That age defense regression was new and I had nothing to do with how players retire was changed. Was not my idea. I didn't know a thing about it until players started to report it.

LOL but changes that were not well thought out, that's funny, almost as funny as players playing until they are in their 80's right? I am not even sure how changing retirement by date to retirement by age would ever cause an issue with defense LOL.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Where do you come up with this stuff? I had a random using 5 year recalc. Xander Boegaerts was a DH by age 31 with red 20 fielding ratings. It was July when this was discovered. It took weeks for it to be fixed(if it was fixed). I'm not a tester, so I should know soon.

Thing is, the RAH was added with zero testing. Someone that doesn't play random debut decided to suggest it and with no thought they ruined random debut for the first 4 months of the OOTP25. That's pure crap.

Holy crap dude. you are reading what you want. RAH has NOTHING to do with the defense issue! and RAH was tested very well and worked perfectly! When players would hit their age of retirement, they would retire. That defense thing was NOT a part of how RAH worked LOL.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Where do you come up with this stuff? I had a random using 5 year recalc. Xander Boegaerts was a DH by age 31 with red 20 fielding ratings. It was July when this was discovered. It took weeks for it to be fixed(if it was fixed). I'm not a tester, so I should know soon.

Also just wondering, when did Xander Bogaerts retire again? Hmm? Would like to know that! OH He has NOT retired yet! So ummm... since he has not retired, how would RAH even effect him? RAH ONLY effects people that have actually retired and their retirement info is in the database! Since Xander Bogaerts has not retired, then it is not connected to RAH. To me that sounds more like an issue with the recalc system and not the retirement system lol.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Holy crap dude. you are reading what you want. RAH has NOTHING to do with the defense issue!

LOL. They had to change the way modern players aged so that RAH would work when playing random debut. Otherwise, guys like Judge, Bogaerts, Betts etc would just play forever. I've been playing random debut since it's inception and this was never a problem. Why? Because I simply use recalc and the development engine and modern players would age and regress without issue. Same goes for Sandy Koufax, Shoeless Joe etc. Then the wild idea gets thrown out there to add RAH to random debut in a patch. But, everyone says, what happens to the modern guys. They say they will make it so they age and regress. This was done pretty much overnight to make it ready for a patch. No testing You didn't discover a thing. We all knew if you didn't use the combo of recalc and development, a guy like Koufaz would have the same season over and over again untill he was 50 or the game got bored with him. We all had a working solution, recalc and the development engine.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by twins_34

The ONLY reason these were used together was to make players retire when their recalc ran out because,

Really? I've had Koufax and Hubbs play into the mid 70s. Once George Korince played long enough to make the HoF.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Also just wondering, when did Xander Bogaerts retire again? Hmm? Would like to know that! OH He has NOT retired yet! So ummm... since he has not retired, how would RAH even effect him? RAH ONLY effects people that have actually retired and their retirement info is in the database! Since Xander Bogaerts has not retired, then it is not connected to RAH. To me that sounds more like an issue with the recalc system and not the retirement system lol.

Lol. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it. 24, 23, 22, 21 worked fine. Just pissed that I wasted 4 months and I promise it won't happen again. I will buy, but never before September.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by David Watts

LOL. They had to change the way modern players aged so that RAH would work when playing random debut. Otherwise, guys like Judge, Bogaerts, Betts etc would just play forever. I've been playing random debut since it's inception and this was never a problem. Why? Because I simply use recalc and the development engine and modern players would age and regress without issue. Same goes for Sandy Koufax, Shoeless Joe etc. Then the wild idea gets thrown out there to add RAH to random debut in a patch. But, everyone says, what happens to the modern guys. They say they will make it so they age and regress. This was done pretty much overnight to make it ready for a patch. No testing You didn't discover a thing. We all knew if you didn't use the combo of recalc and development, a guy like Koufaz would have the same season over and over again untill he was 50 or the game got bored with him. We all had a working solution, recalc and the development engine.

We have multiple people on the forum who volunteered to work on an aspect of the the game. The volunteers now know how everything works while the devs by their own words don't know how anything works.

Then there's a group of people who complain about the lack of a manual explaining how the game works. Their solution is to have the users who are the ones asking how things works write a manual on how things work.

Each version of the game has new features that don't work. It could be argued new features that don't work are introduced to make people forget about the old features that don't work that the devs can't figure out how to fix.

There is an expectation of the users that when there's different input due to players playing for different teams, getting injured when the didn't and not injured when they did, retiring early, playing longer, and their talent changing through TCR, that the league output should be the same. Different input, same output. Another definition of insanity.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Lol. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it. 24, 23, 22, 21 worked fine. Just pissed that I wasted 4 months and I promise it won't happen again. I will buy, but never before September.

I came across my disc for OOTP 11 the other day. I may try it. It has a choice of no splits or random splits, which I don't like, however what's currently being marketed as "real splits" clearly aren't.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by twins_34

The ONLY reason these were used together was to make players retire when their recalc ran out because, like I said, players (Let's say Cal Ripken Jr.) comes into the league in a random debut in 1920, he would never retire. Well I figured out the reason, and Matt fixed that reason! Player were set to retire according to the DATE of their retirement. So Cal would play until he was 81 years old (1920-2001). Well using the Development Engine when recalc ran out would regress players enough to force them to retire. Well, now that's no longer matters. The way players retire has been changed to "around" their age of retirement. So, Cal will retire when he gets around 40 years old so around 1940.

This was the ONLY reason all the old timer OOTP players, that play random Debut, would run both system together. You no longer have to anymore and you can play it just using recalc if you want or if you want development on, you can just do development. But the WHGLE reason the Dev Engine was used was to force retire players once recalc ran out of actual data.

Yes, I am an “old timer” but I am flexible enough to try something new. When OOTP 25 came out I did try recalc only and then development only. For the reasons I listed in my previous post, they were not for me. What worked for me is recalc/development/RAH all ON. RAH is a great new feature for Random and I am flexible enough to use it. If some want to play Random with just recalc or development that’s fine and I am glad that option is available.

[David Watts]

I need to take a deep breath and shut the heck up. I love the game and I can always find a way to enjoy it. Everything can and will be explained away as just another "oh well" moment. Sorry for my tantrum.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Reed

Yes, I am an “old timer” but I am flexible enough to try something new. When OOTP 25 came out I did try recalc only and then development only. For the reasons I listed in my previous post, they were not for me. What worked for me is recalc/development/RAH all ON. RAH is a great new feature for Random and I am flexible enough to use it. If some want to play Random with just recalc or development that’s fine and I am glad that option is available.

I think RAH for random is a great add as well. I just need more convincing before I will ever believe the addition didn't lead to the problems experienced with modern players fielding ratings. It does no one any good to admit that the addition of RAH caused the issues, so I will always sound like I'm wearing my tin foil crown, but so be it.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by David Watts

LOL. They had to change the way modern players aged so that RAH would work when playing random debut. Otherwise, guys like Judge, Bogaerts, Betts etc would just play forever. I've been playing random debut since it's inception and this was never a problem. Why? Because I simply use recalc and the development engine and modern players would age and regress without issue. Same goes for Sandy Koufax, Shoeless Joe etc. Then the wild idea gets thrown out there to add RAH to random debut in a patch. But, everyone says, what happens to the modern guys. They say they will make it so they age and regress. This was done pretty much overnight to make it ready for a patch. No testing You didn't discover a thing. We all knew if you didn't use the combo of recalc and development, a guy like Koufaz would have the same season over and over again untill he was 50 or the game got bored with him. We all had a working solution, recalc and the development engine.

OMG.... RAH and RECALC are two totally different systems. Players that have never retired DO NOT USE the RAH system because they have never retired. This whole defense issue is connected to DEVELOPMENT AND AGE!!!!!!

Why can't you wrap your head around this. I am explaining as simple as I can! Even if you have RAH OFF this whole defense thing is still going to happen! It just happened to a 39 year old Catcher in my online league after we switched to 25! We are not using RAH in this league and we are also NOT using RECALC. This defense regression is not connected to RAH!

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I need to take a deep breath and shut the heck up. I love the game and I can always find a way to enjoy it. Everything can and will be explained away as just another "oh well" moment. Sorry for my tantrum.

Don't apologize and don't stop posting. Businesses need to know why customers aren't spending money with them. Even though most businesses don't act on the information until it's too late.

I'd believe it if someone said that someday OOTP would consist of a group of volunteers providing a new database of player info each year to be used on V 23 or 22 or whatever was the last version that worked reasonably well.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by twins_34

OMG.... RAH and RECALC are two totally different systems. Players that have never retired DO NOT USE the RAH system because they have never retired. This whole defense issue is connected to DEVELOPMENT AND AGE!!!!!!

Why can't you wrap your head around this. I am explaining as simple as I can! Even if you have RAH OFF this whole defense thing is still going to happen! It just happened to a 39 year old Catcher in my online league after we switched to 25! We are not using RAH in this league and we are also NOT using RECALC. This defense regression is not connected to RAH!

Why should we use RAH when the game takes out other players early with career ending injuries? Why should we use miss seasons according to history when the game makes other players miss entire seasons with injuries?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by twins_34

OMG.... RAH and RECALC are two totally different systems. Players that have never retired DO NOT USE the RAH system because they have never retired. This whole defense issue is connected to DEVELOPMENT AND AGE!!!!!!

Why can't you wrap your head around this. I am explaining as simple as I can! Even if you have RAH OFF this whole defense thing is still going to happen! It just happened to a 39 year old Catcher in my online league after we switched to 25! We are not using RAH in this league and we are also NOT using RECALC. This defense regression is not connected to RAH!

Your posts crack me up. Wow, a 39 year old catcher. You must have been heartbroken. Not sure I would even bat an eye if a 39 year old Nolan Arenado couldn't play 3B at 39, But, a 32 year old Arenado becoming a red 20 at age 32, is a little more than I can stomach.

I'm off now to do some testing. Plan on testing for 744 hours straight,

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by David Watts

LOL. They had to change the way modern players aged [so that RAH would work when playing random debut.] Otherwise, guys like Judge, Bogaerts, Betts etc would just play forever.

This right here is right "They had to change the way modern players aged" BUT this has nothing to do with RAH. RAH does not retire modern players and it does not age modern players. RAH only retires players according to their IRL Age when they retired. It USE to be the DATE they retired and that caused players to play into their 90's. Avoiding players playing into their 90's is what we fixed in the RAH.

your issue you are complaining about, which is a whole separate issue from RAH. This has to do with how the game handles itself once RECALC runs out or RECALC has no information to run on. Yes, the devs went a bit too aggressive on the scale of this defense reduction. It however was not part of the RAH system. It was designed to work with having RECALC ON and the player having no data to work off of. This regression would have happened, whether or not, RAH was ON or OFF.

This is what I am trying to explain. It has nothing to do with RAH. It has everything to do with how the game would handle a player, like a modern player, that the game has no recalc info on and no retirement info on. The devs had to come up with a system to try and figure out how to force these modern players, who have not retired, to retire. However it causes issues, like I said, when recalc was on and so was "miss seasons according to history" as well. Like when all the guys went off to war, and you had "miss seasons according to history" turned off, recalc has no info on them war time players and their defense also crashed UNLESS you have 5 year or 3 year recalc on. then of course the 2 or 3 years missed for war was ignored because recalc was not run.

But yeah, the devs needed a way to make people like Judge retire because RAH does not work on people that have never retired. The defense regression was a whole new system? Maybe? I dunno. You can make ask Garlon that question.

I only helped fix the issue of players like Nolan Ryan, Vida Blue, Kent Hrbek, Ken Griffey Jr. Cal Ripken Jr from playing until they were in their 90's THAT is all RAH does. RAH does not regress players. RAH has no development feature to it. It just sees that Nolan Ryan is 46 years old he needs to retire, Vida Blue is 36 years old he needs to retire, Kent Hrbek is 34 years old he needs to retire, Ken Griffey Jr. is 40 years old he needs to retire, and Cal Ripken Jr is 40 years old he needs to retire. And this very next off season, even if they are an 80/80 player, they will retire. THAT is all RAH does. Nothing more and nothing less. Before the change it would use "it is October 6 2001 We need to retire Cal Ripken Jr" and if he would show up in 1920, without recalc and dev engine on, he would have played until Oct 6th 2001. NOW he only plays until he is 40 and will retire. That's all that was changed and that is all RAH does.