Bring Back Manual

[Pelican]

TBH I never relied on the manual to first learn the game, or later when I reached a dead end or had a problem. From the beginning, after I stumbled upon these message boards, I relied on posing questions here, and getting prompt, helpful, thoughtful, encouraging responses - sometimes from the developers themselves. For the most part, my issues turned out to be "user error", but of course new users are going to get lost and need guidance.

Now, I am not everybody, and maybe not typical. But I suspect that most users would greatly appreciate this interactive, user-friendly quick response mechanism, rather than trying to find an answer somewhere in even an updated manual. Think about it. If you buy a new computer or car or watch, and you have a question or a problem, is your first inclination to consult a product manual, or to contact product support or a chat or a user group for help?

You can consult Wikipedia, or you can ask Google or DuckDuckGo or Siri or whoever. Wouldn't you go with the interactive option first?

I'm not arguing against having a product manual or updating the current dated version for OOTP. I am questioning how often even a superb manual would ever be consulted, when product support is very hands-on, and a whole community is readily available to provide guidance. So I can readily accept that updating the user manual may not be a high priority.

[biggerme]

It seems this thread is gaining traction,
In some ways at least.

Ih have very long history with OOTP, Going back to 2008 When I bought
OOTP 9, I still have that Confirmation of Purchase in my Inbox together with working License key and also working download link, when I started, that manual was absolutely irreplaceable resource

[Brad K]

What is possible at this point is a rehash of the 24 manual with descriptions of some of the new features in 25 added. I don't know how they'd handle documentation of the new features that don't work as intended. Maybe leave them out entirely.

Would such a manual satisfy those who are demanding one? I have some doubts. Being late they'll give it extra scrutiny.

The chances for a good 25 manual ended when so many errors were discovered in the initial release. I don't know if this is an error in Beta testing or if Beta discovered the errors but they couldn't be corrected before release.

[biggerme]

Support will be provided in a number of ways, including but not limited to actively supported fan boards, content-driven websites, downloads and patches and certainly new versions of the products as they evolve. We release free updates for all of our games throughout the annual development cycle, meaning that if you buy one of our games, you can expect us to care for that game during the season and improve it even more.[/CENTER]

including but not limited to actively supported fan boards

So that assumption is quite mighty, it exists of course to the extent that current players have knowledge and/or experience to provide answers. But we don't know how the game works either , these are just educated guesses.In order to provide meaningful and factual responses one would need to see the actual code.
And on that,there are plenty of tools today availble that can help in demystifying what some piece of code does:ChatGPT,Gemini, and there are some more specialized tools for handling different programming languages

[liberty-ca]

Originally Posted by Pelican

If you buy a new computer or car or watch, and you have a question or a problem, is your first inclination to consult a product manual, or to contact product support or a chat or a user group for help?

You can consult Wikipedia, or you can ask Google or DuckDuckGo or Siri or whoever. Wouldn't you go with the interactive option first?

I'm not arguing against having a product manual or updating the current dated version for OOTP. I am questioning how often even a superb manual would ever be consulted, when product support is very hands-on, and a whole community is readily available to provide guidance. So I can readily accept that updating the user manual may not be a high priority.

I feel exactly opposite. I love having a helpful interactive community, but I prefer official, "trusted" information directly from people who make the product. Also, manual info is instant, while community help might take days or weeks to arrive - yeah, it is not about delivering live hearts or something like that, but still... Not having an updated manual for such complex product is ridiculous, no matter how much of excusable spin someone might put out to defend existing situation.

On a personal note, I find myself loving OOTP more and more with every new release (started with 2018 edition) on one hand, and on the other hand becoming more and more frustrated with it's deficiencies, as I grow more familiar with what this game is able to offer. I think that OOTP has a few incredible, unbelievably talented developers, but severely lacks a large group of foot soldiers, who should provide maintenance and informational support on a regular basis.

Some days it feels to me that OOTP is a colossus on clay legs. I want my fears and uncertainty about the future of this game to be proven wrong, because OOTP opened my eyes to the beauty of real baseball game and I want OOTP to prosper out of simple gratitude.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by biggerme

OUR MISSION

............



SUPPORTING THE SIMULATIONS TO THE FULLEST.

They're doing it to their fullest. Accept it.

That mission statement is about as binding as a politician's oath of office to support and defend the Constitution. Are you perhaps contemplating a suit based on alleged breach of the mission statement? LOL.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by md40022

And the house is already built... people are just asking how to set the thermostat

Considering all the fixes that are going on, I'd say the house hasn't received its inspection and Certificate of Occupancy.

[NoOne]

The league stuff -- try making one in a custom setup and see if it defualts to a league level, then you know it's just rookie or international in a different superficial wrapper.

Usually there are roundabout ways to understand what's going on with a little exploration.

Maybe, even sim out 10-20 years to see what happens with this setting or that.

I've always liked doing that sort of thing, but understand it may not be everyone's cup of tea, However between the ootp 24 manual, the forums and a light amount of trial and error this is really making a mountain out of a mole hill. I played it out of the box 10+ years ago without much of a struggle.

Also, consider that many features are new this year, while the rest of the manual is essentially the same as it has been for 10-15 years? Nothing as substantial as this year in a quite some time as far as new game features that require additions to the manual. You don't need to explain much about 3d player models, for example, so i'm not saying there weren't upgrades for 10-15 years, but more behind the curtain stuff going on.

Have a little patience, grasshoppers. No need for some petition of no consequence, lol. Who does that? Think someone delved into imagination land a bit too far.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by Pelican

TBH I never relief on the manual to first learn the game, or later when I reached a dead end or had a problem. From the beginning, after I stumbled upon these message boards, I relied on posing questions here, and getting prompt, helpful, thoughtful, encouraging responses - sometimes from the developers themselves. For the most part, my issues turned out to be "user error", but of course new users are going to get lost and need guidance.

Now, I am not everybody, and maybe not typical. But I suspect that most users would greatly appreciate this interactive, user-friendly quick response mechanism, rather than trying to find an answer somewhere in even an updated manual. Think about it. If you buy a new computer or car or watch, and you have a question or a problem, is your first inclination to consult a product manual, or to contact product support or a chat or a user group for help?

You can consult Wikipedia, or you can ask Google or DuckDuckGo or Siri or whoever. Wouldn't you go with the interactive option first?

I'm not arguing against having a product manual or updating the current dated version for OOTP. I am questioning how often even a superb manual would ever be consulted, when product support is very hands-on, and a whole community is readily available to provide guidance. So I can readily accept that updating the user manual may not be a high priority.

My first instinct is to read the manual rather then asking questions that it easily answers. This also helps stop repeated basic questions on forums.

Having a manual is a must IMHO.

[jcard]

Every option should be included with examples that demonstrate the impact of enabling / disabling or changing the value of the option (like a math textbook). No more parsing meaning and trying to interpret the usage of context-dependent terms (such as “ratings”).

(Related aside)
The developers should include a QuickStart of each game mode with what they deem the optimal tradeoff between the quantity of enabled options (formal realism) and the quality of execution of the enabled options (functional realism). It requires heroic cognitive dissonance to reconcile the fact that the included QuickStarts are just copy-pasted into subsequent versions with two implicit messages aimed at users:

1) OOTP has received and continues to benefit from constant refinements and additional features over the last decade.

2) The QickStarts included in the game are optimized templates for the current version of OOTP.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by jcard

Every option should be included with examples that demonstrate the impact of enabling / disabling or changing the value of the option (like a math textbook). No more parsing meaning and trying to interpret the usage of context-dependent terms (such as “ratings”).

I'm not sure that I agree with some of you guys on this. Why should it include this? The manual should explain how to play the game, and get you pointed in the right direction... not how to "beat the game" so to speak.

I know I'm completely simplifying this, but the manual for Mike Tyson's Punchout on the old Nintendo didn't tell you the tricks to beating each fighter or how to learn the timing of when Tyson was about to punch you. All that stuff was for the user to find out as they played. But the manual did tell you what button throws a punch and what button dodges.

How to interpret ratings, how to analyze a left handed hitter's rating vs. left handed pitching and comparing that to a left handed pitcher's rating vs. a left handed batter and coming up with a ratio of how those ratings coincide and how that plate appearance might play out (that's an active topic on another thread right now)...... that kind of stuff absolutely and unequivocally should not be in the manual. That would take a lifetime to write, it would be a million pages long and our heads would be ready to explode by the time we got 2 pages into it.

A brief description of game modes, a brief explanation of settings, and a tutorial of new features for a specific year.

I dont want to know a lot of the behind the curtains stuff. That's what makes the game fun and makes our own strategies worth testing out.

[Baby Ruth]

Originally Posted by md40022

I'm not sure that I agree with some of you guys on this. Why should it include this? The manual should explain how to play the game, and get you pointed in the right direction... not how to "beat the game" so to speak.

I agree that the point of a manual is how to use the software. But without explaining what the actual effect of an option is there's no point in having an option. And I don't mean an explanation such as having a button that turns on Option A with a text hover that says, 'This option turns on Option A.' We need to know what turning on Option A does, in layman's terms. Many a good computer game has been made less enjoyable by a lack of explaining what the game mechanics are and what the effect of turning various buttons on or off is.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by Baby Ruth

I agree that the point of a manual is how to use the software. But without explaining what the actual effect of an option is there's no point in having an option. And I don't mean an explanation such as having a button that turns on Option A with a text hover that says, 'This option turns on Option A.' We need to know what turning on Option A does, in layman's terms. Many a good computer game has been made less enjoyable by a lack of explaining what the game mechanics are and what the effect of turning various buttons on or off is.

I agree with you completely on this. But I do think options can be explained in layman's terms within a few sentences. Maybe a short paragraph. There's no need for a math textbook as someone said for explaining options.

Example: "The player personality setting will factor into team morale. Having high team moral will result in slight performance upticks as where having low team moral will result in the opposite. Disabling the player personality setting will remove this from factoring into team and player performance." ---- Boom, that's all that's needed. We don't need to know the percentage of uptick or down tick. We don't need to know how many bad personalities could become problematic. We don't need to know how much winning games would outweigh crappy personalities from a team morale standpoint. We don't need equations and graphs or a math textbook. Frankly, i would not want to know those things since it takes the fun out of it. But at least now I know that having a bunch of jerks on the roster might not be the best idea.

[Baby Ruth]

Originally Posted by md40022

Example: "The player personality setting will factor into team morale. Having high team moral will result in slight performance upticks as where having low team moral will result in the opposite. Disabling the player personality setting will remove this from factoring into team and player performance." ---- Boom, that's all that's needed. We don't need to know the percentage of uptick or down tick. We don't need to know how many bad personalities could become problematic. We don't need to know how much winning games would outweigh crappy personalities from a team morale standpoint. We don't need equations and graphs or a math textbook. Frankly, i would not want to know those things since it takes the fun out of it. But at least now I know that having a bunch of jerks on the roster might not be the best idea.

Great example and commentary. This would be enough for me.

[ZepTepi]

Originally Posted by Pelican

TBH I never relief on the manual to first learn the game, or later when I reached a dead end or had a problem. From the beginning, after I stumbled upon these message boards, I relied on posing questions here, and getting prompt, helpful, thoughtful, encouraging responses - sometimes from the developers themselves. For the most part, my issues turned out to be "user error", but of course new users are going to get lost and need guidance.

Now, I am not everybody, and maybe not typical. But I suspect that most users would greatly appreciate this interactive, user-friendly quick response mechanism, rather than trying to find an answer somewhere in even an updated manual. Think about it. If you buy a new computer or car or watch, and you have a question or a problem, is your first inclination to consult a product manual, or to contact product support or a chat or a user group for help?

You can consult Wikipedia, or you can ask Google or DuckDuckGo or Siri or whoever. Wouldn't you go with the interactive option first?

I'm not arguing against having a product manual or updating the current dated version for OOTP. I am questioning how often even a superb manual would ever be consulted, when product support is very hands-on, and a whole community is readily available to provide guidance. So I can readily accept that updating the user manual may not be a high priority.

....I relied on posing questions here, and getting prompt, helpful, thoughtful, encouraging responses - sometimes from the developers themselves....


I agree about it being great having this forum as a resource but if I'm having an issue or a question about a game feature and I have a manual(hopefully a good one) that I can refer too then that's going to provide me a much more prompt answer than the forums can. Questions I ask here can sometimes take days or weeks to get replies and some never get a reply at all. If that comes off as a complaint, it wasn't intended that way. I've never participated in a forum where I expected to get prompt, accurate replies every time because members like yourselves aren't logging in and looking to see what ZepTepi posted before doing anything else. I view support from developers/manufacturers much differently. If I'm paying for their product I expect there to be a manual/user guide I can reference. If there isn't one I am not going to have a good opinion of that company.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by md40022

I'm not sure that I agree with some of you guys on this. Why should it include this? The manual should explain how to play the game, and get you pointed in the right direction... not how to "beat the game" so to speak.

I know I'm completely simplifying this, but the manual for Mike Tyson's Punchout on the old Nintendo didn't tell you the tricks to beating each fighter or how to learn the timing of when Tyson was about to punch you. All that stuff was for the user to find out as they played. But the manual did tell you what button throws a punch and what button dodges.

How to interpret ratings, how to analyze a left handed hitter's rating vs. left handed pitching and comparing that to a left handed pitcher's rating vs. a left handed batter and coming up with a ratio of how those ratings coincide and how that plate appearance might play out (that's an active topic on another thread right now)...... that kind of stuff absolutely and unequivocally should not be in the manual. That would take a lifetime to write, it would be a million pages long and our heads would be ready to explode by the time we got 2 pages into it.

A brief description of game modes, a brief explanation of settings, and a tutorial of new features for a specific year.

I dont want to know a lot of the behind the curtains stuff. That's what makes the game fun and makes our own strategies worth testing out.

Totally agree, it's a simulation of baseball, the game, the players, front office, etc. etc.
It's not a math problem to be solved. A math book, with the answers in full view, or written upside down on the bottom of the page, should not be provided.

Originally Posted by md40022

I agree with you completely on this. But I do think options can be explained in layman's terms within a few sentences. Maybe a short paragraph. There's no need for a math textbook as someone said for explaining options.

Example: "The player personality setting will factor into team morale. Having high team moral will result in slight performance upticks as where having low team moral will result in the opposite. Disabling the player personality setting will remove this from factoring into team and player performance." ---- Boom, that's all that's needed. We don't need to know the percentage of uptick or down tick. We don't need to know how many bad personalities could become problematic. We don't need to know how much winning games would outweigh crappy personalities from a team morale standpoint. We don't need equations and graphs or a math textbook. Frankly, i would not want to know those things since it takes the fun out of it. But at least now I know that having a bunch of jerks on the roster might not be the best idea.

Yes. All day every day.

[micropterus58]

An up to date manual would be nice but it will never be satisfactory for all users. Everybody has a different level of knowledge of baseball and OOTP. We need a concise description of the the features, especially the new features. We can't have a manual that is so verbose and complex that it turns users off. This forum is the best place for when the manual is not sufficient enough. Forum members willingly answer questions and are capable of helping with the nuances of baseball and OOTP. What this forum needs is an updated forum itself. This forum is ancient. People repeatedly ask the same questions when a new version is released. Many do not do a search themselves. The forum needs a "frequently asked questions (FAQ)" section to help avoid these questions. This forum also needs a "tutorial" section where users can easily find information including links to YouTube videos. There is good info on YouTube but not everybody knows about it. I understand how and why the manual is not up to date. I'd rather the devs concentrate on the game first and foremost.

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Considering all the fixes that are going on, I'd say the house hasn't received its inspection and Certificate of Occupancy.

The issuance of a CO does not prevent the buyer having a "punch list" for the builder to accomplish, based on odds and ends that do not prevent occupancy, but when fixed make the experience smoother and more enjoyable.

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by ZepTepi

....I relied on posing questions here, and getting prompt, helpful, thoughtful, encouraging responses - sometimes from the developers themselves....


I agree about it being great having this forum as a resource but if I'm having an issue or a question about a game feature and I have a manual(hopefully a good one) that I can refer too then that's going to provide me a much more prompt answer than the forums can. Questions I ask here can sometimes take days or weeks to get replies and some never get a reply at all. If that comes off as a complaint, it wasn't intended that way. I've never participated in a forum where I expected to get prompt, accurate replies every time because members like yourselves aren't logging in and looking to see what ZepTepi posted before doing anything else. I view support from developers/manufacturers much differently. If I'm paying for their product I expect there to be a manual/user guide I can reference. If there isn't one I am not going to have a good opinion of that company.

It's ironic that we are having this debate in a forum, essentially in real time; although I admit this is opinion and not problem-solving, so maybe that's not a fair comparison to how one uses a product manual.

Your approach assumes that consulting the manual answers the question immediately. That may have been your experience, but it was not mine. Now, you may rightly say that is due to deficiencies in the current manual. But I am not sure that even the best product manual can anticipate the questions and problems that will come up with users.

Again, YMMV. I have always received a prompt response from a developer on a complaint to Technical Support seeking help. That includes some early issues where the manual was of no help to me. I could ask a question and get an answer and some guidance and explanation. Or a gentle reference to user error.

And I have received close to real time responses to postings on the message boards in this forum, asking questions, seeking advice, drawing on the experience of others. No static manual could provide any of that.

I'm not arguing against having a manual, or updating the current version. I just see it as having limited utility, at least after the first couple of hours of playing the game. Interactive is better, at least for me.

[md40022]

I have referred this game to one person in my life. That person was my brother. He is a casual baseball fan, but a big time gamer and enjoys strategy based sims with large amounts of data to analyze. I thought being a casual baseball fan and a big strategic gamer made OOTP something that might appeal to him.

This was a few years back. I don't recall the exact year.

He gave it a try though.... and my phone would not stop ringing with questions he had that a "casual" baseball fan needed explained to them. Rule 5 draft rules, player option years, 40 man roster vs. 25/26 man roster, waivers, DFA, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Eventually he lost interest and never picked the game back up. I can't help but think a halfway decent manual that the user actually knew where and how to access could have maybe done wonders there, because to the point I've been making here - all you really need is a few sentences explaining most of that stuff to get the user pointed in the right direction.

So in my real life experience, I can sincerely say that the manual situation might have cost them a customer.

**edit - I actually tried to get him back into the game earlier this year, but in showing him this years version literally the first play he saw was one of those hits to the outfield where the outfielder literally disappears and then shows back up in the bleachers... needless to say, that didn't reel him back in