Age 19 Rule 5 eligible

[Bobbyraz49]

So was this potential 4.5 star catcher signed at age 14 ?
This doesn't seem right.

[grmagne]

Was he released by one club and then signed by another? Only the original contract a player signs makes him exempt for 5 years. A real life example is Elvis Luciano who was drafted in rule 5 at age 19.

[locuspc]

That's not true. Only if a player resigns with the same organization that released him is he supposed to become Rule 5 eligible. OOTP has the rule wrong.

[Le Grande Orange]

From the 2021 edition of the Major League Rules:

Major League Rule 5

   (c) PLAYERS SUBJECT TO SELECTION. All players on the Minor League 
Reserve Lists of Major League and Minor League Clubs, except players
on the Voluntarily Retired, Disqualified or Ineligible Lists, shall 
be subject to selection by other Major League Clubs at the Rule 5 
Selection Meeting in accordance with the following:
 
      (1) A player without previous Major or Minor League service 
   who signs with a Major League or Minor League Club shall be 
   subject to selection based on the following:

         (A) if 18 years of age or under on the June 5 
      immediately preceding the player’s signing, the player shall 
      be subject to selection at the fifth Rule 5 Selection Meeting 
      that follows the signing date of the player’s first Major or 
      Minor League contract, unless Rule 5(c)(1)(C) applies;

         (B) if 19 years of age or over on the June 5 immediately
      preceding the player’s signing, the player shall be subject to
      selection at the fourth Selection Meeting that follows the 
      signing date of the player’s first Major or Minor League 
      contract, unless Rule 5(c)(1)(C) applies;

         (C) if the signing date of a player’s first Major or Minor
      League contract is between:

            (i) the conclusion of the championship season for the
         Major or Minor League Club to which the player is assigned
         on such contract and

            (ii) the next Rule 5 Selection Meeting, then the player
         shall be deemed to have signed after the next Rule 5 Selection
         Meeting, for purposes of this Rule 5(c)(1).

      (2) A player who is re-signed by a Club within one year from the
   date the Club released the player shall be subject to draft at the 
   Rule 5 Selection Meeting following the date of the latest contract 
   with that Club.

      (3) A player who has been subject to draft at a Rule 5 Selection
   Meeting shall be subject to draft at any subsequent Rule 5 Selection
   Meeting if the player is on a Minor League Reserve List (filed 
   pursuant to Rule 1 (Reserve Lists) at the time of the Rule 5 
   Selection Meeting.

      (4) A player:

         (A) whose contract has been assigned outright by a Major
      League Club to a Minor League Club,

         (B) who has been signed as a free agent to a Minor League
      Uniform Player Contract for services in the following year and is
      otherwise subject to selection pursuant to Rule 5(c)(1) or
      Rule 5(c)(2), or

         (C) who has been released unconditionally from a Minor
      League roster and is otherwise subject to selection pursuant to
      Rule 5(c)(1) or Rule 5(c)(2), shall be subject to selection at any
      subsequent Rule 5 Selection Meeting if the player is on a Minor
      League Reserve List (filed pursuant to Rule 1 (Reserve Lists)) at
      the time of the Rule 5 Selection Meeting.

      (5) A Major League Club may designate any player on one of its
   Minor League Reserve Lists to be subject to selection who otherwise
   would not be selectable under this Rule 5.

Originally Posted by locuspc

That's not true. Only if a player resigns with the same organization that released him is he supposed to become Rule 5 eligible. OOTP has the rule wrong.

The player would be eligible. See Rule 5(c)(4).

[bwburke94]

Elvis Luciano was a real-life example of this.

[locuspc]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

From the 2021 edition of the Major League Rules:

Major League Rule 5

   (c) PLAYERS SUBJECT TO SELECTION. All players on the Minor League 
Reserve Lists of Major League and Minor League Clubs, except players
on the Voluntarily Retired, Disqualified or Ineligible Lists, shall 
be subject to selection by other Major League Clubs at the Rule 5 
Selection Meeting in accordance with the following:
 
      (1) A player without previous Major or Minor League service 
   who signs with a Major League or Minor League Club shall be 
   subject to selection based on the following:

         (A) if 18 years of age or under on the June 5 
      immediately preceding the player’s signing, the player shall 
      be subject to selection at the fifth Rule 5 Selection Meeting 
      that follows the signing date of the player’s first Major or 
      Minor League contract, unless Rule 5(c)(1)(C) applies;

         (B) if 19 years of age or over on the June 5 immediately
      preceding the player’s signing, the player shall be subject to
      selection at the fourth Selection Meeting that follows the 
      signing date of the player’s first Major or Minor League 
      contract, unless Rule 5(c)(1)(C) applies;

         (C) if the signing date of a player’s first Major or Minor
      League contract is between:

            (i) the conclusion of the championship season for the
         Major or Minor League Club to which the player is assigned
         on such contract and

            (ii) the next Rule 5 Selection Meeting, then the player
         shall be deemed to have signed after the next Rule 5 Selection
         Meeting, for purposes of this Rule 5(c)(1).

      (2) A player who is re-signed by a Club within one year from the
   date the Club released the player shall be subject to draft at the 
   Rule 5 Selection Meeting following the date of the latest contract 
   with that Club.

      (3) A player who has been subject to draft at a Rule 5 Selection
   Meeting shall be subject to draft at any subsequent Rule 5 Selection
   Meeting if the player is on a Minor League Reserve List (filed 
   pursuant to Rule 1 (Reserve Lists) at the time of the Rule 5 
   Selection Meeting.

      (4) A player:

         (A) whose contract has been assigned outright by a Major
      League Club to a Minor League Club,

         (B) who has been signed as a free agent to a Minor League
      Uniform Player Contract for services in the following year and is
      otherwise subject to selection pursuant to Rule 5(c)(1) or
      Rule 5(c)(2), or

         (C) who has been released unconditionally from a Minor
      League roster and is otherwise subject to selection pursuant to
      Rule 5(c)(1) or Rule 5(c)(2), shall be subject to selection at any
      subsequent Rule 5 Selection Meeting if the player is on a Minor
      League Reserve List (filed pursuant to Rule 1 (Reserve Lists)) at
      the time of the Rule 5 Selection Meeting.

      (5) A Major League Club may designate any player on one of its
   Minor League Reserve Lists to be subject to selection who otherwise
   would not be selectable under this Rule 5.

The player would be eligible. See Rule 5(c)(4).

I don't know what you expect me to see in Rule 5(c)(4). I see something about guys who have been outrighted from the majors, and a couple things about guys who would be otherwise eligible by Rule 5(c)(1) or Rule 5(c)(2), none of this applies to teenagers who got cut from one minor league team and went to another.

Elvis Luciano is a fun trivia answer but he was not in the same situation as these teens OOTP is making rule 5 eligible.

[turtle4499]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Elvis Luciano was a real-life example of this.

I do not believe that to be correct. I believe he is an example of the mixed effects from 5(c)(2) and 5(c)(3). He was resigned within 1 year by the royals and thus was available at that point in time. Because of 5(c)(3) he would be available.

5(c)(4)(c) what I assume you are both referring to, I think is specifically referring to minor league free agents.

Especially given the way it is listed.

5(c)(4)(a) is players who just passed through wavers.

5(c)(4)(b) is minor leaguers who did not have a contract the previous year but have one the following year.

5(c)(4)(c) should then be some statement about there current status as a non rostered minor league player.

I assume this is some quirk about how minor league players are actually considered contractually that they needed the 4th clause about the different roster stuff.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by locuspc

I don't know what you expect me to see in Rule 5(c)(4). I see something about guys who have been outrighted from the majors, and a couple things about guys who would be otherwise eligible by Rule 5(c)(1) or Rule 5(c)(2), none of this applies to teenagers who got cut from one minor league team and went to another.

Re: the bolded.

It does. Specifically. How did the player go from one team to another according to your own statement? By being released, which makes him a free agent, and then being signed to a new contract by the new club., i.e. actions covered by Rule 5(c)(4)(B) and 5(c)(4)(C). In those cases the player is subject to selection in any Rule 5 draft if the player is on the roster of a minor league club.

I suggest reading the rules again. I'll grant you the legalese-style in which they are written can make it difficult to parse at first, but with repeated it gets easier to understand.

[locuspc]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Re: the bolded.

It does. Specifically. How did the player go from one team to another according to your own statement? By being released, which makes him a free agent, and then being signed to a new contract by the new club., i.e. actions covered by Rule 5(c)(4)(B) and 5(c)(4)(C). In those cases the player is subject to selection in any Rule 5 draft if the player is on the roster of a minor league club.

I suggest reading the rules again. I'll grant you the legalese-style in which they are written can make it difficult to parse at first, but with repeated it gets easier to understand.

You are the one who needs to read the rules again, and read what I posted again. You're missing the clause "and is otherwise subject to selection pursuant to Rule 5(c)(1) or Rule 5(c)(2)" which applies to both 5(c)(4)(B) and 5(c)(4)(C). That means that they are not subject under those rules unless they would be subject under 5(c)(1) or 5(c)(2), which these teenagers would not be.

The legalese-style in which these rules are written can make it difficult to parse, and you have not in fact successfully parsed them.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by turtle4499

5(c)(4)(c) what I assume you are both referring to, I think is specifically referring to minor league free agents.

Any player released by a club is a free agent, be they a major or minor league player.

Originally Posted by turtle4499

5(c)(4)(a) is players who just passed through wavers.

How do you protect a player from selection? They must be put on the 40-man roster, the exception being players in the minors who have not yet reached the fourth or fifth draft after their first contract based on their age, i.e. Rule 5(c)(1)(A) and (B) — those players cannot be drafted.

However, a player outrighted to the minors, that is, removed from the 40-man roster, is selectable in the draft immediately following that assignment, if the player is in the minors at the time of the draft, as that outright negates the protected period described in Rule 5(c)(1)(A) and (B).

[Matt Arnold]

It's certainly confusing. When I last parsed through I read it the same way LGO was. But yeah, maybe it should only count the guys who re-sign with their own team? I feel like where I found the information before may not have included that last bit.

It's probably a rare enough corner case that it would probably make sense to ignore it and just stick to the 4/5 year rule. We can look at that for a future update.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

It's certainly confusing. When I last parsed through I read it the same way LGO was. But yeah, maybe it should only count the guys who re-sign with their own team? I feel like where I found the information before may not have included that last bit.

The 2008 MLR use the same phrasing as the 2021 MLR, although the formatting is different. The 1986 MLR state it this way, which perhaps makes it clearer:

MLR 5(f)  [Players subject to selection]

(2) A player who signs as a free agent after having been
released from a previous contract shall, if never before
subject to draft under Rule 5, be subject thereto at the
fourth Rule 5 selection meeting which follows the effective
season of his first professional baseball contract.
EXCEPTION: If re-signed by the releasing club (or an
affiliate thereof) within one year from the date of his
release, he shall be subject at the Rule 5 meeting next
following the date of the latest contract with that club.

The above, leaving aside the protected period for younger players being defined differently, suggests locuspc's interpretation is correct and the protected period reattaches unless the player is being re-signed by the club that released him.

I unfortunately don't have any copies of the MLR between 1987 and 2008 to do additional crosschecks.

[turtle4499]

First this is my favorite thread ever btw. Not only was what appears to be a bug turns out to be actually thought out behavior (which as a dev I love to see) but also the level of baseball history involved in the actual interpretation being pretty detailed.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I unfortunately don't have any copies of the MLR between 1987 and 2008 to do additional crosschecks.

Its likely changed some point during 1997-1999 around the time of the passage of the Curtis Flood act in congress. The league was apparently forced by congress in exchange for leaving intact minor league exemption to from antitrust to renegotiate the terms of minor league rules. This also occurs during expansion.

https://scholarship.law.marquette.ed...text=sportslaw

Relevent section:

After the Basic Agreement was signed by the parties in March 1997,
the owners and players negotiated the terms of a bill that would fulfil the
mutual promises contained in Article XXVIII. That bill, S. 53, was relatively
straight forward and clean. It passed the Senate Judiciary Committee on July 31, 1998.

Following the Senate Judiciary Committee's vote, the minor league
owners finally entered the process, having declined many previous invitations
to do so. They used their individual and collective political clout
in the House of Representatives to threaten to block the enactment
of the legislation unless the language was changed to their satisfaction.

Although the Major League owners, the players and a majority
of the Judiciary Committee thought that the minor leagues were well
protected by the bill as it passed the Committee, the owners and players
agreed to negotiate new language with the affiliated minor leagues.
After much prodding and guidance from Senators Hatch and Leahy, the
result was the Curt Flood Act of 1998.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by turtle4499

Its likely changed some point during 1997-1999 around the time of the passage of the Curtis Flood act in congress. The league was apparently forced by congress in exchange for leaving intact minor league exemption to from antitrust to renegotiate the terms of minor league rules. This also occurs during expansion.

After some digging, the age split in Rule eligibility started in 1990 as a result of the CBA.

In 1969, a player became Rule 5 draft eligible at the third draft meeting following his first season. By 1986 this had been changed to the fourth meeting after his first season.

The 1990 CBA changed eligibility so that a player aged 18 or less on the June 5 preceding his signing became draftable at the fourth meeting following his first season, while a player aged 19 or older became eligible at the third meeting after his first season. The 2007 CBA expanded the lengths to fifth and fourth meeting, respectively, but these were measured from the date of signing rather than his first season. I'm not sure when the switch from first season to date of signing was made.

Another change of note in 1990 was that outright assignment waivers were made irrevocable. Previously they could be withdrawn if the player was claimed.