Goalie Usage (Again)

Curve Ball Dave · 11-11-2023, 06:24 PM

So I have a five star goalie who is arguably the best player in the league. He's top ten in save percentage and goals allowed. He's won twice as many starts as he lost.

So who has my AI coach given the majority of the starts to?

The other guy.

The other guy has a .500 record and his save percentage is a half goal higher as is his goals against.

I just really wish the AI would recognize the better player and play him the majority of the time.

GMO123 · 11-11-2023, 07:56 PM

I was hoping that was fixed.

Curve Ball Dave · 11-11-2023, 07:57 PM

To continue the story, I fired my head coach. If your coach is "balanced" when it comes to goalies, forget it, you'll be hitting your head against the wall when you see how often the inferior goalie starts.

The disparity in the stats between my two goalies is even greater than I listed above as the season has progressed. There's no way the other guy should have started as often as he did. My new coach is "very aggressive" when it comes to handling goalies. His record so far has justified the switch as he's been starting the clearly superior goalie.

renojedi · 11-11-2023, 09:06 PM

Out of curiosity, how does it look for other teams in your league?

Curve Ball Dave · 11-11-2023, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renojedi

Out of curiosity, how does it look for other teams in your league?

Just looking at the final season stats, at least 13 goalies played at least 63 games. My best goalie, who is the best in the league, played in 45 games. He had to relieve the other guy a couple of times. If my best goalie started 60 games we wouldn't have eeked into the playoffs by one point, we would have likely won the division going away and never have to sweat out the final ten games.

My team stood a very real chance of not making the playoffs because the original coach kept starting the other guy. A loss in November counts just the same as a loss in March.

tomkmb · 11-12-2023, 05:08 AM

Does it just start the inferior player more or does it start whoever is allocated in the 'backup' slot on the depth chart?

Curve Ball Dave · 11-12-2023, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomkmb

Does it just start the inferior player more or does it start whoever is allocated in the 'backup' slot on the depth chart?

Both. The inferior goalie is the #2 on the depth chart and until I changed coaches he got the majority of the starts, and losses I might add. My #2 goalie was 2 games under .500 in 40 starts. Fortunately my #1 was 12 games over so between the two of them we had a winning record and we barely made the playoffs. My superior #1 goalie only managed to start 42 games because the new coach played him in 16 of the final 21 games, otherwise had things kept going the way they were the #2 was on pace to start 50+ games.

I play as the GM so the AI decides the lines. When it comes to the skaters the AI is perfectly logical. The best guys are on the first line, then the next best guys are in the second line and so on. I can't argue at all with construction of the lines. The best players play the most minutes in a given game.

But when it comes to goalies and a "balanced" coach it's as if nothing else matters. It doesn't matter how much better the #1 goalie's ratings are, or how statistically superior the #1 is. It's as if there is no player evaluation at all. The #2 is going to start, and start, and start and team will lose, and lose, and lose. It's beyond frustrating to lose a game 6-4 that would have been won 4-2 had the #1 goalie started as he should.

My universe is a 48 team league (the NHL plus additional historical teams). 42 goalies played in more games than my #1. None of them had a better save percentage in as many or more games. As I said above, it's as if there's no player evaluation at all when it comes to goalies.

tomkmb · 11-12-2023, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave

Both. The inferior goalie is the #2 on the depth chart and until I changed coaches he got the majority of the starts, and losses I might add. My #2 goalie was 2 games under .500 in 40 starts. Fortunately my #1 was 12 games over so between the two of them we had a winning record and we barely made the playoffs. My superior #1 goalie only managed to start 42 games because the new coach played him in 16 of the final 21 games, otherwise had things kept going the way they were the #2 was on pace to start 50+ games.

I play as the GM so the AI decides the lines. When it comes to the skaters the AI is perfectly logical. The best guys are on the first line, then the next best guys are in the second line and so on. I can't argue at all with construction of the lines. The best players play the most minutes in a given game.

But when it comes to goalies and a "balanced" coach it's as if nothing else matters. It doesn't matter how much better the #1 goalie's ratings are, or how statistically superior the #1 is. It's as if there is no player evaluation at all. The #2 is going to start, and start, and start and team will lose, and lose, and lose. It's beyond frustrating to lose a game 6-4 that would have been won 4-2 had the #1 goalie started as he should.

My universe is a 48 team league (the NHL plus additional historical teams). 42 goalies played in more games than my #1. None of them had a better save percentage in as many or more games. As I said above, it's as if there's no player evaluation at all when it comes to goalies.

What happens if you place the better goalie in the backup slot?

Curve Ball Dave · 11-12-2023, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomkmb

What happens if you place the better goalie in the backup slot?

I can't. I'm playing as the GM so I can't set the lineups. (Unless I can and I'm missing something)

tomkmb · 11-12-2023, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave

I can't. I'm playing as the GM so I can't set the lineups. (Unless I can and I'm missing something)

Ah yeah, of course! My mistake, I only ever play as HC/GM - if I wanna 'role play' that I'm just a GM I just AI the lineups and change anything that looks crazy to me before letting it ride for a bit.

CanuckJohnny · 11-12-2023, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave

To continue the story, I fired my head coach. If your coach is "balanced" when it comes to goalies, forget it, you'll be hitting your head against the wall when you see how often the inferior goalie starts.

The disparity in the stats between my two goalies is even greater than I listed above as the season has progressed. There's no way the other guy should have started as often as he did. My new coach is "very aggressive" when it comes to handling goalies. His record so far has justified the switch as he's been starting the clearly superior goalie.

Interesting. Especially since I would interpret very aggressive to mean he is quick to pull the starter/roll with the backup. I've been having the same issues with the AI teams, although for myself I just play as HC/GM most of the time because of weird things like this. I wish there was a GM only option that allowed you to override weird AI decisions still.

If very aggressive goalie handling preference fixes it I could just edit all the coaches to that... although I think for some reason we still can't edit most coach tendencies (why??)

renojedi · 11-12-2023, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanuckJohnny

If very aggressive goalie handling preference fixes it I could just edit all the coaches to that... although I think for some reason we still can't edit most coach tendencies (why??)

Would appreciate a comment on this from the developers. I thought aggressive meant quick switches too so that seems weird they are the most conservative in goalie usage. I doubt there is any professional coach in the world who would play an inferior goalie most of the time no matter what their coaching style was.

JeffR · 11-13-2023, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renojedi

Would appreciate a comment on this from the developers. I thought aggressive meant quick switches too so that seems weird they are the most conservative in goalie usage. I doubt there is any professional coach in the world who would play an inferior goalie most of the time no matter what their coaching style was.

That's what it means. The goalie handling rating is not used at all in determining who starts.

Curve Ball Dave · 11-13-2023, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffR

That's what it means. The goalie handling rating is not used at all in determining who starts.

Well, at any rate, the new coach did start the #1 goalie more often and that saved the season.

I've had this issue in the previous versions as well, I was hoping it would get fixed. It apparently hasn't. I'm thinking why even bother investing anything into a top flight goalie if the AI isn't going to use to him. The goalie use logic (to use the term loosely) hasn't improved at all as far as I can tell.

GMO123 · 11-14-2023, 08:37 PM

Unfortunately that has been a problem for a long time.
Goalie usage should be fixed.

DrunkenTeddy · 11-15-2023, 12:56 AM

Yeah I don't even try to use goalie start settings anymore, I just pick the goalie for each game manually now... Takes a while but saves from a lot of annoyance

Curve Ball Dave · 11-15-2023, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrunkenTeddy

Yeah I don't even try to use goalie start settings anymore, I just pick the goalie for each game manually now... Takes a while but saves from a lot of annoyance

I've decided that's what I'm going to do going forward. It's the only way I can make sure the superior goalie starts as he should. If I'm going to lose, I'm going to lose with my best.

It is unfortunate that this problem has never been fixed.

ety516 · 11-15-2023, 12:16 PM

@JeffR have you considered that the AI might have the "meaning" of "backup" and "starting" mixed up for the purpose of building lines? It seems to assign the correct role when setting up contracts, but then tends to field the goalies as if their roles were the exact opposite.

GMO123 · 11-15-2023, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ety516

@JeffR have you considered that the AI might have the "meaning" of "backup" and "starting" mixed up for the purpose of building lines? It seems to assign the correct role when setting up contracts, but then tends to field the goalies as if their roles were the exact opposite.

I've wondered if that was at least part of the problem.

Curve Ball Dave · 11-15-2023, 08:29 PM

I started a new season and the AI is up to its old tricks again. I can't change the goalie when I "play" the game so I'm stuck with who the AI picks. So far the #1 has 10 starts with the #2 having 7. While it's nice the #1 has more starts, it would be really nice if he had a lot more.

I'd trade the #2 guy and call up a goalie from the AHL but if the "logic" is the same as it was in past versions the AI will continue to start the #2 waaaay more often than any rationally thinking person with even a room temperature IQ ever would no matter how bad he is, so my team will continue to lose games it should win.

The goalie usage has been broke for a long time across many versions. I don't know what to do anymore.

11-11-2023, 07:57 PM	#3
Curve Ball Dave Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,341	To continue the story, I fired my head coach. If your coach is "balanced" when it comes to goalies, forget it, you'll be hitting your head against the wall when you see how often the inferior goalie starts. The disparity in the stats between my two goalies is even greater than I listed above as the season has progressed. There's no way the other guy should have started as often as he did. My new coach is "very aggressive" when it comes to handling goalies. His record so far has justified the switch as he's been starting the clearly superior goalie. __________________ "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing"-Warren Spahn.

11-15-2023, 08:29 PM	#20
Curve Ball Dave Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,341	I started a new season and the AI is up to its old tricks again. I can't change the goalie when I "play" the game so I'm stuck with who the AI picks. So far the #1 has 10 starts with the #2 having 7. While it's nice the #1 has more starts, it would be really nice if he had a lot more. I'd trade the #2 guy and call up a goalie from the AHL but if the "logic" is the same as it was in past versions the AI will continue to start the #2 waaaay more often than any rationally thinking person with even a room temperature IQ ever would no matter how bad he is, so my team will continue to lose games it should win. The goalie usage has been broke for a long time across many versions. I don't know what to do anymore. __________________ "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing"-Warren Spahn. Last edited by Curve Ball Dave; 11-15-2023 at 09:00 PM.

11-11-2023, 06:24 PM	#1
Curve Ball Dave Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,341	Goalie Usage (Again) So I have a five star goalie who is arguably the best player in the league. He's top ten in save percentage and goals allowed. He's won twice as many starts as he lost. So who has my AI coach given the majority of the starts to? The other guy. The other guy has a .500 record and his save percentage is a half goal higher as is his goals against. I just really wish the AI would recognize the better player and play him the majority of the time. __________________ "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing"-Warren Spahn.

11-11-2023, 07:56 PM	#2
GMO123 Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 412	I was hoping that was fixed.

11-11-2023, 09:06 PM	#4
renojedi Major Leagues Join Date: May 2003 Location: Richmond, Virginia area Posts: 458	Out of curiosity, how does it look for other teams in your league?

11-12-2023, 05:08 AM	#6
tomkmb All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2021 Posts: 1,489	Does it just start the inferior player more or does it start whoever is allocated in the 'backup' slot on the depth chart?

11-14-2023, 08:37 PM	#15
GMO123 Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 412	Unfortunately that has been a problem for a long time. Goalie usage should be fixed.

11-15-2023, 12:56 AM	#16
DrunkenTeddy Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Langley, BC Posts: 365	Yeah I don't even try to use goalie start settings anymore, I just pick the goalie for each game manually now... Takes a while but saves from a lot of annoyance

11-15-2023, 12:16 PM	#18
ety516 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2023 Location: Slovakia Posts: 36	@JeffR have you considered that the AI might have the "meaning" of "backup" and "starting" mixed up for the purpose of building lines? It seems to assign the correct role when setting up contracts, but then tends to field the goalies as if their roles were the exact opposite.