1961 Yankees

David Watts · 08-08-2023, 07:29 PM

In a group on sports sim group on Facebook and one of the members used OOTP to replay the 61 season using real lineups/real transactions. He managed the Yankees and his results were not pretty. He actually finished the season under .500. I've decided to use 24 to do the same replay and as much as it pains me, I'm managing the Yankees. I'm not going to do game by game updates, but I will post my progress. My main league is a random debut. Just doing this on the side.

So far I'm off to a 1-1 start.

David Watts · 08-08-2023, 08:04 PM

Ugh, so far not off to a great start. 6-5, but we did have a series against Detroit and Baltimore. Maris has 3 home runs, Mantle 2. Rotation for Yankees is kind of rocky. Ford and Terry, but that's about it.

pstrickert · 08-08-2023, 10:13 PM

For the record, he was using OOTP21.

Brad K · 08-09-2023, 09:15 AM

Did a bunch of players slump or did the guy manage exceptionally poorly?

David Watts · 08-09-2023, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstrickert

For the record, he was using OOTP21.

Yeah, I actually thought I typed that yesterday, but realized I left it out just now. Ugh. I still wonder if some of his settings weren't set properly, so I decided to give it shot myself. When I first saw his posts a ways back, I ran a fast sim of 61. The Yankees came in second place, behind the Tigers. Neither team won 100 games. Maris his 68 and Mantle hit 56.

David Watts · 08-09-2023, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

Did a bunch of players slump or did the guy manage exceptionally poorly?

According to his reports it sounded like the pitching really faltered. Tons of walks.

David Watts · 08-09-2023, 12:01 PM

I think the hardest part of playing real lineups is the bullpen. For example, I've played 11 games. I would bet for at least 8 of those games, the listed starter for the Yankees on the scores screen has been Bill Stafford. Once you select the game however Stafford is replaced by the pitcher that actually started. I would guess stuff like this is a huge reason why teams can over perform or under perform. I think one would really have to check the real boxscores on a game by game basis or things could get out of whack fast. Thing is, you would have to do that for all the teams. OOTP in 1961 is not set to use starters in relief on a regular basis.

Reed · 08-09-2023, 02:06 PM

My first MLB game. July 15, 1961. Yankees vs White Sox. Yankees came from behind to win 9-8. Maris had a double, triple, and home run. The White Sox hit about 4 home runs and the fire works were really exploding.
When COVID was around and stuck at home, I found the old radio broadcast on the internet so I got to listen to it again. That was fun but my wife thought I was crazy.

David Watts · 08-09-2023, 06:58 PM

Well the struggles continue. 10-10, 6th place. Mantle has 7 home runs, Skowron 5 and Maris 4. All three have 16 rbi. Just lots 2 out of 3 to Minnesota and 2 out of 3 to Los Angeles.

David Watts · 08-10-2023, 09:03 AM

Ah maybe I should play all my games in the morning before work. Swept a 2 game series against Kansas City and then beat Detroit 3 out of 4. What stinks is, the loss came to Detroit in the 2nd game of a double header and the Tigers sat a lot of their studs. Jim Bunning didn't sit though and he shut us down completely for a 2-0 shutout. We are now 15-11.

David Watts · 08-10-2023, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstrickert

For the record, he was using OOTP21.

Got to looking at the guy that used OOTP21's screenshots. One thing that jumped out at me is, Bud Daley started 27 games for his Yankees. Daley only started 17 game for the Yankees in 61, His other 10 starts that year were with KC. He didn't have any Art Ditmar starts. He also doesn't have the 2 games started by Danny McDevitt. Very strange.

pstrickert · 08-10-2023, 02:36 PM

Hard to know when something is user error or not. I know we've worked hard the last three versions to improve historical replays. Still have some tightening up to do. I recently simmed the '61 season twice. The Yankees finished first and second, but both times they had the best Pyth W-L record. Mantle and Maris both hit between 50 and 58 home runs each time.

David Watts · 08-10-2023, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Hard to know when something is user error or not. I know we've worked hard the last three versions to improve historical replays. Still have some tightening up to do. I recently simmed the '61 season twice. The Yankees finished first and second, but both times they had the best Pyth W-L record. Mantle and Maris both hit between 50 and 58 home runs each time.

The one thing I always wonder is, did the person check to see if development was off or on. It can make such a huge difference. He also used Arroyo the Yankee's best relief pitcher around the same number of games the Yankees used him but for a lot less innings. 34 innings less. Give Arroyo more innings and Clevinger less? I backed off on the FB thread, because I didn't want to get someone mad.

32koufax · 08-10-2023, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Well the struggles continue. 10-10, 6th place. Mantle has 7 home runs, Skowron 5 and Maris 4. All three have 16 rbi. Just lots 2 out of 3 to Minnesota and 2 out of 3 to Los Angeles.

Hi David,
I've replayed the Yankees 3 times, 1x w/23 and 2x w/24. Tigers won handily all 3 times. Yankees never reached 100 wins... Played '64 and the Cards wound up in the cellar. Brock coming to St. Louis mid-season didn't help a lick. lol

Replayed '50 and the Dodgers were below .500 mired in the 2nd division. Phillies played so far over their heads.

These were all auto plays (a bit of curiousity to see results) using R/L lineups and transactions.

It's interesting in that many of the teams were spot on in team and individual results, but some of the quality teams played like the '62 Mets.

Jack

David Watts · 08-10-2023, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 32koufax

Hi David,
I've replayed the Yankees 3 times, 1x w/23 and 2x w/24. Tigers won handily all 3 times. Yankees never reached 100 wins... Played '64 and the Cards wound up in the cellar. Brock coming to St. Louis mid-season didn't help a lick. lol

Replayed '50 and the Dodgers were below .500 mired in the 2nd division. Phillies played so far over their heads.

These were all auto plays (a bit of curiousity to see results) using R/L lineups and transactions.

It's interesting in that many of the teams were spot on in team and individual results, but some of the quality teams played like the '62 Mets.

Jack

I started in 61 and just let it fast sim to 74. It's amazing how close OOTP get when it comes to a players overall career numbers.

thehef · 08-10-2023, 03:14 PM

While I'm following this closely, I'm kinda puzzled by the concept of using of historical lineups because that always leads to the combination of historical lineups to start games followed by the decidedly unhistorical use (and makeup) of the roster once games start.

IOW, the gamer wants each game to start off with the lineups that were used IRL, but then from that point OOTP presumably/typically does what makes sense, rather than what the RL manager would've done... Starting lineups & rotations don't get the benefits of hindsight & foresight, but the in-game AI does... Not a complaint; it just seems weird to me.

That said, historical lineups is a great tool for evaluating OOTP's historical accuracy. That is where I find it useful, if not particularly entertaining

pstrickert · 08-10-2023, 04:01 PM

If OOTP included a penalty for overusing a player compared to real life, then perhaps things like bullpen use would fall into place. I don't know.

pstrickert · 08-10-2023, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

I started in 61 and just let it fast sim to 74. It's amazing how close OOTP get when it comes to a players overall career numbers.

We're still trying to figure out why some of the top teams regularly fall a bit short of their RL win totals. It might be that their team defense (when it's supposed to be really good) is not contributing enough to lowering their team ERA. Not necessarily related, but we've also noticed too many sac bunts compared to real life, allowing too many easy outs. So, it remains a work in progress.

David Watts · 08-10-2023, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

While I'm following this closely, I'm kinda puzzled by the concept of using of historical lineups because that always leads to the combination of historical lineups to start games followed by the decidedly unhistorical use (and makeup) of the roster once games start.

IOW, the gamer wants each game to start off with the lineups that were used IRL, but then from that point OOTP presumably/typically does what makes sense, rather than what the RL manager would've done... Starting lineups & rotations don't get the benefits of hindsight & foresight, but the in-game AI does... Not a complaint; it just seems weird to me.

That said, historical lineups is a great tool for evaluating OOTP's historical accuracy. That is where I find it useful, if not particularly entertaining

I started this mainly due to the Facebook posts in which the guy finished under .500 managing the 61 Yanks. He was using OOTP21. Cool thing about how OOTP operates when using real lineups is, the AI doesn't immediately insert a stud player into the game if that player sat out in real life. For example, if playing a game and Al Kaline didn't start for the Tigers, it would suck if the AI immediately inserted him into the game. I don't see the AI doing this, and I love it. If we could ever get the actual game day rosters, so the bullpen is full of the actual bullpen guys each day it would be incredible, but I'm guessing that would take way too much work. Heck, I was perusing PC Replay baseball as folks absolutely rave about that game. But, man one would have to be rich to play it and afford the seasons. Guessing they are priced high, because so much work goes into creating them.

David Watts · 08-10-2023, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstrickert

We're still trying to figure out why some of the top teams regularly fall a bit short of their RL win totals. It might be that their team defense (when it's supposed to be really good) is not contributing enough to lowering their team ERA. Not necessarily related, but we've also noticed too many sac bunts compared to real life, allowing too many easy outs. So, it remains a work in progress.

Thanks for all your work. It's funny, I'm in those sports sim groups on Facebook and I think I've made less than a handful of posts. I just read what folks are doing with all the sim games available. Then someone makes a post about OOTP and the hairs on the back of my neck go up.

08-08-2023, 07:29 PM	#1
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,882 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	1961 Yankees In a group on sports sim group on Facebook and one of the members used OOTP to replay the 61 season using real lineups/real transactions. He managed the Yankees and his results were not pretty. He actually finished the season under .500. I've decided to use 24 to do the same replay and as much as it pains me, I'm managing the Yankees. I'm not going to do game by game updates, but I will post my progress. My main league is a random debut. Just doing this on the side. So far I'm off to a 1-1 start.

08-09-2023, 02:06 PM	#8
Reed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 2,339	My first MLB game. July 15, 1961. Yankees vs White Sox. Yankees came from behind to win 9-8. Maris had a double, triple, and home run. The White Sox hit about 4 home runs and the fire works were really exploding. When COVID was around and stuck at home, I found the old radio broadcast on the internet so I got to listen to it again. That was fun but my wife thought I was crazy. Last edited by Reed; 08-09-2023 at 02:12 PM.

08-08-2023, 08:04 PM	#2
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,882 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Ugh, so far not off to a great start. 6-5, but we did have a series against Detroit and Baltimore. Maris has 3 home runs, Mantle 2. Rotation for Yankees is kind of rocky. Ford and Terry, but that's about it.

08-08-2023, 10:13 PM	#3
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 16,435	For the record, he was using OOTP21.

08-09-2023, 09:15 AM	#4
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	Did a bunch of players slump or did the guy manage exceptionally poorly?

08-09-2023, 12:01 PM	#7
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,882 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I think the hardest part of playing real lineups is the bullpen. For example, I've played 11 games. I would bet for at least 8 of those games, the listed starter for the Yankees on the scores screen has been Bill Stafford. Once you select the game however Stafford is replaced by the pitcher that actually started. I would guess stuff like this is a huge reason why teams can over perform or under perform. I think one would really have to check the real boxscores on a game by game basis or things could get out of whack fast. Thing is, you would have to do that for all the teams. OOTP in 1961 is not set to use starters in relief on a regular basis.

08-09-2023, 06:58 PM	#9
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,882 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Well the struggles continue. 10-10, 6th place. Mantle has 7 home runs, Skowron 5 and Maris 4. All three have 16 rbi. Just lots 2 out of 3 to Minnesota and 2 out of 3 to Los Angeles.

08-10-2023, 09:03 AM	#10
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,882 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Ah maybe I should play all my games in the morning before work. Swept a 2 game series against Kansas City and then beat Detroit 3 out of 4. What stinks is, the loss came to Detroit in the 2nd game of a double header and the Tigers sat a lot of their studs. Jim Bunning didn't sit though and he shut us down completely for a 2-0 shutout. We are now 15-11.

08-10-2023, 02:36 PM	#12
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 16,435	Hard to know when something is user error or not. I know we've worked hard the last three versions to improve historical replays. Still have some tightening up to do. I recently simmed the '61 season twice. The Yankees finished first and second, but both times they had the best Pyth W-L record. Mantle and Maris both hit between 50 and 58 home runs each time.

08-10-2023, 03:14 PM	#16
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,345	While I'm following this closely, I'm kinda puzzled by the concept of using of historical lineups because that always leads to the combination of historical lineups to start games followed by the decidedly unhistorical use (and makeup) of the roster once games start. IOW, the gamer wants each game to start off with the lineups that were used IRL, but then from that point OOTP presumably/typically does what makes sense, rather than what the RL manager would've done... Starting lineups & rotations don't get the benefits of hindsight & foresight, but the in-game AI does... Not a complaint; it just seems weird to me. That said, historical lineups is a great tool for evaluating OOTP's historical accuracy. That is where I find it useful, if not particularly entertaining

08-10-2023, 04:01 PM	#17
pstrickert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 16,435	If OOTP included a penalty for overusing a player compared to real life, then perhaps things like bullpen use would fall into place. I don't know.