Commish change log

[brotherblues]

A log of changes done by the commish. Simply records altering injuries and ratings, maybe a couple of other things.

Is this something we have or could have at some point?

Think it'd be a nice QoL improvement for online leagues. Nice for cheating prevention, and it also protects an honest commish from suspicion, fostering healthier online league environments.

[darkcloud4579]

This has long been an issue/request of the dwindling number of humans in online leagues but honestly the juice isn't worth the squeeze IMHO. If you think your commish is cheating, you should probably just quit your league and play w/ppl who you don't think are cheaters. There's no real way when someone has admin rights to start keylogging every editorial change nor should the game bother with that, even if the dev team wanted to prioritize that.

[brotherblues]

Originally Posted by darkcloud4579

This has long been an issue/request of the dwindling number of humans in online leagues but honestly the juice isn't worth the squeeze IMHO. If you think your commish is cheating, you should probably just quit your league and play w/ppl who you don't think are cheaters. There's no real way when someone has admin rights to start keylogging every editorial change nor should the game bother with that, even if the dev team wanted to prioritize that.

Or maybe an option to lock editing ratings similar to challenge mode but without all the other limitations of challenge mode.

That option would be fantastic for making some GMs into a sort of "Vice Commish" role so they can sub in when the commish is indisposed. You can give more people the power to keep the league moving but not alter ratings.

[brotherblues]

Title: Assistant commish

Enabled: Process trades, move players, sim forward, etc
Disabled: See/edit ratings

[jpeters1734]

Originally Posted by darkcloud4579

This has long been an issue/request of the dwindling number of humans in online leagues but honestly the juice isn't worth the squeeze IMHO. If you think your commish is cheating, you should probably just quit your league and play w/ppl who you don't think are cheaters. There's no real way when someone has admin rights to start keylogging every editorial change nor should the game bother with that, even if the dev team wanted to prioritize that.

I don't really agree with this. Trust issues occur BECAUSE there's no feature like this. A change log would solve 90% of the issues out there.

It doesn't need to be a keylogger that is always in the background. It only needs to capture when something is changed outside of a normal development routine.

The lack of a change log is a big part of the reason why I no longer run or participate in leagues. There's just too much drama without one. I would suggest that is the reason why the online league player base is dwindling, as you say.

My conspiracy theory is that OOTP will not make big changes to online leagues because they prefer the multi-player space to be perfect team because that's where they can exploit people with gambling addictions. Online leagues don't make money

[brotherblues]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

I don't really agree with this. Trust issues occur BECAUSE there's no feature like this. A change log would solve 90% of the issues out there.

It doesn't need to be a keylogger that is always in the background. It only needs to capture when something is changed outside of a normal development routine.

The lack of a change log is a big part of the reason why I no longer run or participate in leagues. There's just too much drama without one. I would suggest that is the reason why the online league player base is dwindling, as you say.

My conspiracy theory is that OOTP will not make big changes to online leagues because they prefer the multi-player space to be perfect team because that's where they can exploit people with gambling addictions. Online leagues don't make money

Sensible points but I'd challenge the idea online leagues don't make money. Lotta folks out there who'd have quit the game in '16 or whatever have bought every single version since then because their leagues migrate to the newest version every year.

Also given the slow nature of most online leagues you get a lot of downtime setting your lineup and waiting 2-3 days for the next sim. That's downtime in which some people get itchy and delve into PT and maybe drop a few bucks.

(I do agree 10,000% about everything else you said)

[darkcloud4579]

Online leagues haven't been improved since like OOTP6.5 or something. it's cool the feature still exists, but the vast majority of people buying the game now are MLB style players who heard about it on tv, folks who came because of the MLBPA/MLB/KBO license and sandbox players.

Clearly not a priority, but also...I just think stop playing with people you don't trust. I do think a log would be a deterrent to root out cheating if you posted it online with the upload. But also, the stakes aren't that high and if someone needs to cheat as a commish, then they need to reevaluate their priorities.

But yes, online leagues aren't worth the squeeze of Perfect Team or the other online features, the world is different now than when the game came out and I don't expect them to pay much mind to it, given such a small development team and a captive audience who are probably gonna buy the game either way.

I think all one could hope for on the online league front (H2H is shipping next week jk) is some third party partnering with OOTP to support online style server leagues that would give you these types of features. But...a speculative pipe dream really.

[jpeters1734]

Originally Posted by darkcloud4579

Clearly not a priority, but also...I just think stop playing with people you don't trust. I do think a log would be a deterrent to root out cheating if you posted it online with the upload. But also, the stakes aren't that high and if someone needs to cheat as a commish, then they need to reevaluate their priorities.

"Stop playing with people you don't trust". This is precisely it! What reason does anyone have to trust somone in an online league? We're not real-life friends. We don't know each other. The issue of trust is a big reason why online leagues fail.

[Hooray Saturday]

comish chet log

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

"Stop playing with people you don't trust". This is precisely it! What reason does anyone have to trust somone in an online league? We're not real-life friends. We don't know each other. The issue of trust is a big reason why online leagues fail.

I don't really understand this viewpoint, tbh. Why would you ever play any game online if you feel like you can't trust anyone you don't know online?

[jpeters1734]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I don't really understand this viewpoint, tbh. Why would you ever play any game online if you feel like you can't trust anyone you don't know online?

Every game I play online already has anti-cheating measures in place.

OOTP is the rare exception where the developers and a segment of the player base don't seem to care about cheating.

[bwburke94]

The problem with a commish change log should be obvious: a sufficiently determined commissioner could edit the change log.

[snepp]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

The problem with a commish change log should be obvious: a sufficiently determined commissioner could edit the change log.

The locks on my job trailer won't stop that lone determined thief, but they do stop countless lazy ones from even trying in the first place.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

Every game I play online already has anti-cheating measures in place.

OOTP is the rare exception where the developers and a segment of the player base don't seem to care about cheating.

I don't see a single person who has said they don't care about cheating. If your stance is that you're incapable of trusting someone you only know online, that's fine- but you likely won't find many online communities who base their decisions around people who don't want to be a part of an online community.

[Pelican]

I don't play the online version, and the above discussion is not exactly persuading me it's worth a try. I understand the concept. It's not for me.

But, as a player simming "what if" seasons with high TCR and development on, I would really like such a feature, to track Commissioner changes in ratings. (I tend to make a number of "adjustments", particularly to Negro League players imported to the game.) It would be great to track how/if my relatively modest (usually) adjustments have made any material difference in player performance. Seems like this would not be a mountain of work for programmers (says the guy who dates back to DOS; but has never coded or programmed anything....). I suspect there might be interest/demand from players like me.

[brotherblues]

Originally Posted by snepp

The locks on my job trailer won't stop that lone determined thief, but they do stop countless lazy ones from even trying in the first place.

Yep. Nothing will stop a real hacker but some simple safeguards stop 99% of potential miscreants.

[brotherblues]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I don't really understand this viewpoint, tbh. Why would you ever play any game online if you feel like you can't trust anyone you don't know online?

Why do you get on the bus with a driver you don't trust? How about a plane when you've never met the pilot? Because you know it's safe and hence trust the system and the safeguards in it.

That's the issue here, a complete disregard for safeguards.

As mentioned, all online games have some form of anti-cheat in them except OOTP online leagues.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by brotherblues

Why do you get on the bus with a driver you don't trust? How about a plane when you've never met the pilot? Because you know it's safe and hence trust the system and the safeguards in it.

No, that's not why at all. My willingness to get on a bus or a plane has nothing to do with the trustworthiness of the pilot/driver, and the idea that it would is kind of silly to me. I get in a public transit vehicle because I want to go from A to B and my desire to go there outweighs the risk that the trip causes me injury or death.

Originally Posted by brotherblues

As mentioned, all online games have some form of anti-cheat in them except OOTP online leagues.

I don't stipulate to either part of that premise. It is comically easy for anyone to cheat in any online game or community if they wanted to. OOTP actually contains *much much much* stronger anti-cheat safeguards than any other game I can think of, because only the Commish has the literal ability to directly edit the game.

In a 30-person chess tournament, any of the 30 people could be using an engine. In a 30-team League tournament, any of the 30 teams could be stream-sniping, using macros, etc. In a 30-person Scrabble tournament, any of the 30 people could have a dictionary or Scrabble Solver. In a 30-person quiz competition, any of the 30 people could be looking up answers.

In a 30-person OOTP league, 29 of the 30 people (or in some cases 30 of the 30 people) do not have the ability to directly cheat even if they wanted to.

[MathBandit]

If I sit down to play a game of Settlers of Catan or Wingspan with friends, I don't expect the game dev to have added anti-cheat functions to the game- if I didn't trust the people I was playing with to not cheat I just...wouldn't sit down to a board game with them.

[jpeters1734]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I don't see a single person who has said they don't care about cheating.

If there is a problem and you don't care to find ways to fix the problem, then you don't care about the problem. Everyone that is dismissing the need for anti-cheating measures are saying they don't care about cheating.