2022-2023 NBA Season Thread

[thehef]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

Kind of surprised they did not wait a bit after what happened in his personal life during round 1.

I assume you mean the Bucks' axing of Budenholzer. Pretty cold, given what you mentioned... Also, it kinda negates what Giannis said after the series loss to the Heat, re if the season was a failure or not.

The Bucks are just two years removed from a title that was followed by two very solid regular seasons, with both playoff exits having injuries largely to blame. Doesn't seem like a very rational move to me.

I recall after the Bucks lost game 7 to the Celtics in the EC semis last year, and in the postgamer he said that to win a title (which they had just done the year before, but lost to the C's in part because of Kris Middleton's injury), he said something to the effect of, "you have to have good players, you have to be a little bit lucky, and you have to be healthy."

These last two seasons, Coach Bud's Bucks didn't have all three. No team has ever won without those three, and no team ever will.

[rudel.dietrich]

You are right. No idea why I quoted Cobra

[Déjà Bru]

This kind of thing is so stupid in professional sports (and in college sports and, soon, high school sports).



The guy was one of two things two years ago:

1) He was brilliant and indispensable to the team's success (whereas now he is incompetent and disposable), or

2) He was a relative non-factor in the team's success with the players due all the credit (whereas now he is the culprit and has to go).

Yes, I know that these people know what they are getting into. Some of them are lucky to latch on and have long careers with one organization. At the least, each stop is an item on their resume with frequent job-hopping no drawback to prospective employers.

But I could not hack this nonsense, personally. To put my heart and soul into something, and to also achieve the pinnacle of success, only to be forgotten and dismissed a mere two years later? Keep it. I'll stick to any profession which consistently values competence and commitment.

[pilight]

Almost all coaches start to lose effectiveness over time, leading to their dismissal. This often brings condemnation from irate fans, saying the coach is being made into a scapegoat for larger team problems. Coach Weeble was a good coach a few years ago, wasn't he? He just won coach of the year the season before last! If he was a good coach then why isn't he a good coach now?

There are a number of reasons why this happens, but the overriding principle is that successful coaches change the needs of their organization and in doing so make themselves obsolete. When a coach takes over a team the first thing she does is determine what changes need to be made. Over time, coaches tend to lose the ability to see what changes need to be made.

Coaches (and teams) can be measured along many different lines….offense/defense, use the bench/iron five, young players/experienced players, high pressure/low pressure, fast break/half court set, and so on. New coaches are effective because they pull the team out of the rut caused by over-emphasis on any one category.

For example, if a team doesn't use its bench, the subs won't be sharp and the team will be vulnerable to injuries. If the bench is overused the team won't be able to develop stars. If a team loads up on veterans then age will catch up with them quickly, but if they use too many young players then they probably won't be able to make a title run until a new coach brings in some veteran leadership.

Another issue is that of loyalty of a coach to his players. If a new coach comes in, he doesn't owe anything to anyone. He can bench or release players who aren't getting the job done without apology or explanation. An established coach can't do that as easily. He would have to break faith with players who have given her their best effort. This can affect the whole team. When the established coach decides to release a long time teammate, the remaining players feel betrayed. Coach can't be trusted anymore. Johnny Jumpshot gave all he had and look what happened to him. When a new coach does the same thing the reaction is more like Nobody's job is safe here. I better get my butt in gear or I'll be out on the street. Free agency can make this a little easier on the coach, as they can sometimes say that the decision was out of their hands.

Generally speaking, coaches are hired for good reasons and they're fired for good reasons. A team brings in a coach to fill a need. Once that's done, the team will have a different need and most likely will need a new coach to fill it. Getting fired doesn't mean someone is a bad coach. It just means the team needs a different kind of coach.


That having been said, if Giannis really wanted Budenholzer to be the coach he would be the coach.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

This kind of thing is so stupid in professional sports (and in college sports and, soon, high school sports). ...

Yes, I know that these people know what they are getting into. Some of them are lucky to latch on and have long careers with one organization. At the least, each stop is an item on their resume with frequent job-hopping no drawback to prospective employers.

But I could not hack this nonsense, personally. To put my heart and soul into something, and to also achieve the pinnacle of success, only to be forgotten and dismissed a mere two years later? Keep it. I'll stick to any profession which consistently values competence and commitment.

I would imagine that with a lot of these guys who start out as assistant coaches, it's a nice living and they get to fully immerse themselves - "put their heart and soul" - into something they love. And then if they're lucky enough to get called into the fraternity of head coaches, that inevitability of sooner or later being "forgotten and dismissed" is assuaged by the fortune in "parting gifts" they typically take with them... with the worst-case scenario typically being that they are in better shape financially and can return to the lower-profile, less-stressful, role of an assistant coach where than can still dig deeply into the X's & O's that they love, and whose input is even more valuable by that point.

In Coach Bud's case, I believe he is still owed $16m, so he can take a year or two off and/or climb into the broadcast booth, hold out for an elite head coaching job if that's what he wants. Plenty of options, and they'll never take away the fact that he's an NBA champion coach.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not disagreeing with you. Absent add'l info that's not yet public, I think it's pretty dumb that the Bucks fired him. I just think there's a flip side to this.

Oh, and with regards to this...

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

The guy was one of two things two years ago:

1) He was brilliant and indispensable to the team's success (whereas now he is incompetent and disposable), or

2) He was a relative non-factor in the team's success with the players due all the credit (whereas now he is the culprit and has to go).

... with the exception of some coaches who are/were clearly lacking in their abilities and/or just not a good fit for a particular situation, nearly all coaches fit somewhere in-between #1 and #2. IMO, of the Mount Rushmore of coaches, maybe they weren't replaceable by any other NBA coach, but they were not at all indispensable. They were, rather, sufficiently competent and right place, right time. That said, I'll acknowledge that there's a certain aura that comes with winning an NBA title, and that counts for something simply because folks believe it to be so, even if the reality is that there's very little difference - if any (other than style) - in the relative coaching abilities of, say, Doc Rivers, Del Harris, Pat Riley, Don Nelson, Jerry Sloan, Phil Jackson... YMMV

[Cobra Mgr]

The guy has finished the reg season 1st in the Eastern Conf 3 times. Never won made it to the finals in those years.

1st time, was one point away from a commanding 3-0 lead over Toronto, but managed to lose 4 in a row.

2nd time, in the bubble, lost to a Heat team 1-4 that finished 12 games behind them in the W_L column.

3rd time, sound familiar, lost to a Heat team 1-4 that finished. 14 games behind them in the W-L column.

The season they won the trophy, they were literally a fraction of an inch from a disappointing ouster by an injury depleted Brooklyn team. And were fortunate to play a Cinderella Hawks team the next round.

Last year he should be given a pass losing in 7 to Boston w/o Middleton.

Otherwise, Bud looks like a coach who can't get a team but so far before his team somehow implodes @ the end. It's a pattern.

[rudel.dietrich]

On the other hand. You have a generational talent in Giannis and you would have expected more than one title out of them by now.

Bud has been inflexible with his lineups and unwilling to make adjustments in the playoffs before.

That being said, the Bucks have a lot of questions about the team around Giannis. They have an expensive team, they are on the older side they have trouble scoring efficiently.
I don't know what the answer is going forward.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

On the other hand. You have a generational talent in Giannis and you would have expected more than one title out of them by now.

Bud has been inflexible with his lineups and unwilling to make adjustments in the playoffs before.

That being said, the Bucks have a lot of questions about the team around Giannis. They have an expensive team, they are on the older side they have trouble scoring efficiently.
I don't know what the answer is going forward.

Honest question: Is it possible that the Bucks - and Giannis especially - are more built for the regular season than they are the playoffs? While and elite scorer, consider that Giannis is not a particularly great shooter. And when defensive rotations, commitment, and intensity picks up in the playoffs, that means that those easy regular season buckets that he was getting on his athleticism are a little harder to come by, and end up forcing lesser players (although Holiday, Middleton, and Lopez are no slouches) to make higher-pressure threes.

That, and the fact that the Bucks - pretty much alone among contenders in this respect - are the only team with a single true star. The Bucks' supporting cast is very solid, but Middleton was never quite at that level and certainly isn't now. As good as Holiday is, nobody ever did or ever will consider him a 1A or a 1B. And that kind of depth but lack of a 2nd start is a recipe for regular season - but not post-season - success.

[thehef]

I'm guessing that Joe Mazzula is going to hear a lot of criticism after today's OT loss to the Sixers. Mainly:

A) On Harden's three point shot that gave the Sixers a one-point lead (that turned out to be the game-winner), if you're the Celtics, with a two-point lead and enough time on the clock to where you'll get another possession, the one thing you DON'T want to give up is a three-point shot. Yet the C's doubled on Embiid's drive, leaving Harden for a wide-open three. Basketball 101: You don't get beat by a three when you're up by two and you're getting the ball back...

B) Then, with 16 or so seconds left, on what turned out to be the final possession of the game, Mazzula elects to NOT use one of his TWO timeouts, and then watches his team dribble out the clock before a three-point make by Smart comes a fraction of a second after the game clock expires. Basketball 101: When you're down by one and have the final possession, you shoot your final shot with enough time left on the clock to either a) get the o-rebound and attempt a put-back, or b) foul and put the other team on the line, hoping you'll still have time for a last quick shot to tie.

And when you have TWO timeouts left to sort all of this out?

I hope some reporter asks Mazzula post-game, "Coach, with those two timeouts that you didn't use at the end of the game when your team could've been reminded to execute basketball basics, what are your plans for those timeouts now?"

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by thehef

Honest question: Is it possible that the Bucks - and Giannis especially - are more built for the regular season than they are the playoffs? While and elite scorer, consider that Giannis is not a particularly great shooter. And when defensive rotations, commitment, and intensity picks up in the playoffs, that means that those easy regular season buckets that he was getting on his athleticism are a little harder to come by, and end up forcing lesser players (although Holiday, Middleton, and Lopez are no slouches) to make higher-pressure threes.

That, and the fact that the Bucks - pretty much alone among contenders in this respect - are the only team with a single true star. The Bucks' supporting cast is very solid, but Middleton was never quite at that level and certainly isn't now. As good as Holiday is, nobody ever did or ever will consider him a 1A or a 1B. And that kind of depth but lack of a 2nd start is a recipe for regular season - but not post-season - success.

His playoff numbers are actually a shade above his regular season numbers.

He is the best player in basketball. The team around him through injury or age just struggle on offense. Especially in the half court.

[rudel.dietrich]

76ers vs Celtics was the best game so far this playoffs.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

His playoff numbers are actually a shade above his regular season numbers.

Per 36, he's pretty much the same player, to his credit. But my point is more towards what you wrote here...

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

The team around him through injury or age just struggle on offense. Especially in the half court.

... in that his game - while he is able to essentially replicate his numbers in the playoffs - might be more suited to the grind of a regular season, whereas execution in the the half court offense is more important in playoffs. And when things tighten up in the playoffs, the support of his teammates becomes key, and he doesn't have a legit 1b to lean on... and, he's lacking anything better than an average-at-best shooting game.

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

He is the best player in basketball.

He's certainly in the conversation, but it's not, IMO, hands down. Personally, I'm not going to anoint a guy as the best in the game unless he's someone who I'd be eager to see taking a 15-foot jumper, game on the line. And if we're looking at the best handful+ players, he probably comes in last in that category if he's up against the likes of The Joker, Embiid, KD, Tatum, Shai, Steph, Luka... Not that those guys don't have holes in their game, too, but give me any of those guys (and dozens of others) over Giannis if it's one mid-range shot to win the game...

[Cobra Mgr]

Jokic/Murray 33-55 60% 81 pts
Durant/Booker 25-37 68% 72 pts

Everybody else that played 38 90 42% 100pts

[damientheomen3]

There were 4 or 5 instances in the 4th quarter alone where the Suns would get the ball to Devin Booker with Kevin Durant next to him at the top of the key, Book would pass to KD as soon as the double team came to him, KD would pass to his left when the double team came to him, the last defender on the left side would have to shuffle over and leave Landry Shamet wide open in the left corner with the nearest defender a country mile away. Really felt like Denver's defense was played like a fiddle in that 4th quarter after Booker's insane shooting put the fear of god in them.

Contrast that with Michael Porter Jr. for the Nuggets, who missed 3 or 4 wide open threes in the half, had a weak foul on Ayton that gave him an and-one, and sullied the only good play I saw him make in the half by airballing a three after a good steal that iirc would have tied the game if it went. MPJ sold pretty hard from what I saw.

[Déjà Bru]

In case you were wondering, that was Phoenix Suns owner Mat Ishbia wrestling Nikola Jokic for the ball out of bounds. There was talk of suspending Jokic (they did not, but he was T'd) while Ishbia is the one who should be suspended.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJcB...hannel=ChazNBA

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

In case you were wondering, that was Phoenix Suns owner Mat Ishbia wrestling Nikola Jokic for the ball out of bounds. There was talk of suspending Jokic (they did not, but he was T'd) while Ishbia is the one who should be suspended.

Attachment 947172

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJcB...hannel=ChazNBA

I wonder if they'll rescind the T. Not that it would be worth much if they do, but it doesn't seem as though it was warranted... To Ishbia's credit, he stated very publicly that he thought Jokic should not be suspended. (If I were the Suns, I'd definitely want Jokic suspended, regardless of the reason or justification ).

At any rate, after it was announced that Chris Paul was going to miss some time, I texted a buddy that the Suns were going to need Durant and Booker to each go for 40+ points in 40+ minutes in order to win, and wondered if / doubted they could keep that up the whole series. So far they are two-for-two on that score... We'll see.

[Cobra Mgr]

3 things can be pointed at in W's defeat

1. Splash Bros 3pt shooting (6 of 23)
2. Playing Moody down the stretch instead of Payton or DiVincenzo
3. Walker IV scoring 15 in the 4th.

[rudel.dietrich]

We could possibly see all four series wrapped up by Friday morning.

[Cobra Mgr]

I didn't watch the game. But I saw where JWIll & Legs tore into Ayton.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I didn't watch the game. But I saw where JWIll & Legs tore into Ayton.

I do not know who those people are. But yeah, he has not been great. He is by no means bad. But he just does not seem to grasp that he is 7’1 and built like a Greek god.
His motor is not there in most games.