Two-Way player turnouts: How's it been for you?

nutt · 01-19-2023, 03:52 PM

This is the first year I've really looked at a player and thought of them more for two-way capabilities than one dimensional (pitching or hitting---not doing mopup or pinch-hitting for a pitcher's slot). My Low-A and Complex leagues always end up short on arms (I try to carry 13-15 pitchers at each level), so I went through my minor league teams to see if any position players had pitcher ratings.

Turns out that most of the draftees from 2022-25 have some pitching ratings and now we're going to see if Nolan Stevens is a better pitcher than first basemen because he can't hit above .100 in the FCL. Now I've got 18 pitchers, with 4-6 at each level designed for mopup duty because of this.

koohead · 01-19-2023, 04:07 PM

horrible. granted, I have tried to hard to make it work, meaning I take players who are marginal in one way or another (either as a pitcher or a batter) and try to use them as 2 way players. 2 possible reasons I have not had good success with this:
- I sim 100% of my games, so I imagine the AI is just not that mature to be able to utilize these talents properly
- I am blinded by the "sum being greater than it's individual parts" syndrome.

Kobeck · 01-19-2023, 05:53 PM

I had good luck in my online league, but less so in main sim which relied on AI to handle 2 way players

OutS|der · 01-19-2023, 11:36 PM

Two way players never seem to work out both ways. They seem to perform better as a pitcher and lack enough at bats as a player to put up meaningful stats.

I've even tried it with a perfect player. They will dominate as a pitcher while never performing as good as a hitter. Fatigue seems to play a big role of them not performing as well when as a hitter.

aks62 · 01-19-2023, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutS|der

Two way players never seem to work out both ways. They seem to perform better as a pitcher and lack enough at bats as a player to put up meaningful stats.

I've even tried it with a perfect player. They will dominate as a pitcher while never performing as good as a hitter. Fatigue seems to play a big role of them not performing as well when as a hitter.

In addition to this...can we discuss how, for most 2-way players, the contract ask algorithm/expectation is broken? It's a nice hack to sign some of these guys for ~$1M for years on end, but it's not realistic, and it only abates if you commit the player to one side of the ball. They also get non-tendered left and right by AI teams, despite their low asks.

Never mind the weird OVR/POT discrepancy that seems unique to 2-ways...

Dutch Alexander · 01-20-2023, 03:53 AM

In my fictional league there was the below player. His entire career was handled by AI. This league has an 88 game schedule with 5 games per week. Perhaps the extra off days help. He had about equal value as a hitter and pitcher. At the end of the 2022 season he is ranked 5th in career WAR as a batter and 2nd as a pitcher. He was a 2 time pitcher of the year and a 4 time player of the year. Pitchers can not win player of the year, but for two-way players their performance as a pitcher is still taken into account.

OutS|der · 01-20-2023, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

In my fictional league there was the below player. His entire career was handled by AI. This league has an 88 game schedule with 5 games per week. Perhaps the extra off days help. He had about equal value as a hitter and pitcher. At the end of the 2022 season he is ranked 5th in career WAR as a batter and 2nd as a pitcher. He was a 2 time pitcher of the year and a 4 time player of the year. Pitchers can not win player of the year, but for two-way players their performance as a pitcher is still taken into account.

Did he play the field as well? I’m thinking the extra days off definitely helped as any I’ve had struggled as a hitter.
I’ve even taken Babe Ruth from from the Cooperstown QS and put him in the MLB QS and he struggled to hit even 30 home runs yet when i turned off two way play and set him as only a hitter he started hitting 60 a year. I let the AI handle it as well and simmed year by year.

Very impressive years from your guy though.

Dutch Alexander · 01-20-2023, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutS|der

Did he play the field as well? I’m thinking the extra days off definitely helped as any I’ve had struggled as a hitter.
I’ve even taken Babe Ruth from from the Cooperstown QS and put him in the MLB QS and he struggled to hit even 30 home runs yet when i turned off two way play and set him as only a hitter he started hitting 60 a year. I let the AI handle it as well and simmed year by year.

Very impressive years from your guy though.

On the days he pitched he was the DH. On the days he didn't pitch he played first base. Based on his defensive stats he was about average at first base. He never played anywhere else.

OutS|der · 01-20-2023, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

On the days he pitched he was the DH. On the days he didn't pitch he played first base. Based on his defensive stats he was about average at first base. He never played anywhere else.

Interesting. The extra day off must of really helped. Also 1B tends to cause less fatigue. I’ll have to try it out and see how it works with each position.

Dutch Alexander · 01-20-2023, 08:58 AM

In my league Monday and Thursday are always offdays. So position players never fatigue. This will surely help a two-way player. And I guess on the day he pitches the game treats him as a DH? In that case he will not accumulate much fatigue on the days he pitches. Perhaps not completely realistic.

Looking at this players salary history he averages just under $200,000 per season with a league average of just under $50,000. At the moment there are 14 players in the league that earn $200,000 or more. So if you look at his total WAR production he was undervalued by quite a bit. He is by far the most valuable player in league history.

Kobeck · 01-20-2023, 10:30 PM

the 2way guy I had was an Ace pitcher & a gold glove SS

for a handful of seasons he was an allstar SS with above avg bat

won MVP and deserved it, but that was with me micromanaging his SS play

BaseballGOAT · 01-21-2023, 12:07 AM

Very hit and miss. More miss than hit once the real draftees ran out. Seems OOTP doesn't create its own 2 way players very well.

nutt · 01-21-2023, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballGOAT

Very hit and miss. More miss than hit once the real draftees ran out. Seems OOTP doesn't create its own 2 way players very well.

I've seen a few.

Pelican · 01-21-2023, 03:04 PM

I have tried this with Bucky Walters - who could hit and played 3B while pitching early in his career - but the AI does not seem to grasp it. I’m having trouble keeping him in the Phillies rotation (1931 Season) and playing 3B occasionally. In this sim I’m not managing every game, so trying to orchestrate the lineups.

TreeRol · 01-26-2023, 12:58 PM

In my fictional league, somehow I have 3 players who are excellent 2-way players. We're talking at least 55 overall in both. It seems broken to me.

luckymann · 01-26-2023, 05:42 PM

Some from my EL save have done pretty well, although the general tendency I have seen is - both individually and collectively - for them to usually excel in one and not both. Still, these guys have been exceptions to this rule on occasion:

Others, less so:

01-19-2023, 03:52 PM	#1
nutt OOTP Roster Team Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,206	Two-Way player turnouts: How's it been for you? This is the first year I've really looked at a player and thought of them more for two-way capabilities than one dimensional (pitching or hitting---not doing mopup or pinch-hitting for a pitcher's slot). My Low-A and Complex leagues always end up short on arms (I try to carry 13-15 pitchers at each level), so I went through my minor league teams to see if any position players had pitcher ratings. Turns out that most of the draftees from 2022-25 have some pitching ratings and now we're going to see if Nolan Stevens is a better pitcher than first basemen because he can't hit above .100 in the FCL. Now I've got 18 pitchers, with 4-6 at each level designed for mopup duty because of this. __________________ Mega World for OOTP 25: CLICK HERE! Thread College Baseball All-Time Roster Project: CLICK HERE! AIO for OOTP 23: CLICK HERE! Thread AIO for OOTP 22: CLICK HERE! Thread BIG WORLD for OOTP22: WinRAR File ZIP file My Custom Schedules

01-19-2023, 04:07 PM	#2
koohead Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,209	horrible. granted, I have tried to hard to make it work, meaning I take players who are marginal in one way or another (either as a pitcher or a batter) and try to use them as 2 way players. 2 possible reasons I have not had good success with this: - I sim 100% of my games, so I imagine the AI is just not that mature to be able to utilize these talents properly - I am blinded by the "sum being greater than it's individual parts" syndrome. __________________ GM - New Jersey Bears of the NPBL;

01-20-2023, 03:53 AM	#6
Dutch Alexander All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 712	In my fictional league there was the below player. His entire career was handled by AI. This league has an 88 game schedule with 5 games per week. Perhaps the extra off days help. He had about equal value as a hitter and pitcher. At the end of the 2022 season he is ranked 5th in career WAR as a batter and 2nd as a pitcher. He was a 2 time pitcher of the year and a 4 time player of the year. Pitchers can not win player of the year, but for two-way players their performance as a pitcher is still taken into account. Attached Images

01-21-2023, 03:04 PM	#14
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 2,929	I have tried this with Bucky Walters - who could hit and played 3B while pitching early in his career - but the AI does not seem to grasp it. I’m having trouble keeping him in the Phillies rotation (1931 Season) and playing 3B occasionally. In this sim I’m not managing every game, so trying to orchestrate the lineups. __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.”

01-26-2023, 05:42 PM	#16
luckymann Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 13,308	Some from my EL save have done pretty well, although the general tendency I have seen is - both individually and collectively - for them to usually excel in one and not both. Still, these guys have been exceptions to this rule on occasion: Others, less so: __________________ HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA

01-19-2023, 05:53 PM	#3
Kobeck Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 491	I had good luck in my online league, but less so in main sim which relied on AI to handle 2 way players

01-19-2023, 11:36 PM	#4
OutS\|der Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: In A Van Down By The River Posts: 2,697 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Two way players never seem to work out both ways. They seem to perform better as a pitcher and lack enough at bats as a player to put up meaningful stats. I've even tried it with a perfect player. They will dominate as a pitcher while never performing as good as a hitter. Fatigue seems to play a big role of them not performing as well when as a hitter.

01-20-2023, 08:58 AM	#10
Dutch Alexander All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 712	In my league Monday and Thursday are always offdays. So position players never fatigue. This will surely help a two-way player. And I guess on the day he pitches the game treats him as a DH? In that case he will not accumulate much fatigue on the days he pitches. Perhaps not completely realistic. Looking at this players salary history he averages just under $200,000 per season with a league average of just under $50,000. At the moment there are 14 players in the league that earn $200,000 or more. So if you look at his total WAR production he was undervalued by quite a bit. He is by far the most valuable player in league history.

01-20-2023, 10:30 PM	#11
Kobeck Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 491	the 2way guy I had was an Ace pitcher & a gold glove SS for a handful of seasons he was an allstar SS with above avg bat won MVP and deserved it, but that was with me micromanaging his SS play

01-21-2023, 12:07 AM	#12
BaseballGOAT Banned Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 1,373 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Very hit and miss. More miss than hit once the real draftees ran out. Seems OOTP doesn't create its own 2 way players very well.

01-26-2023, 12:58 PM	#15
TreeRol Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Haarlem, Netherlands Posts: 19	In my fictional league, somehow I have 3 players who are excellent 2-way players. We're talking at least 55 overall in both. It seems broken to me.