Very disappointing decision

[Kobeck]

yet they choose to do so ....

[ehalt]

Originally Posted by tm1681

There is no way that either OOTP Developments or Com2US would have willingly done something that would have so clearly, easily, and obviously riled up its userbase.

There's no way they would have done the thing they literally just did? I'm lost.

[tm1681]

Originally Posted by ehalt

There's no way they would have done the thing they literally just did? I'm lost.

willingly...

WILLINGLY

[Caedus]

Don’t understand why they had to scramble the Japanese leagues and players to South Africa…why not just scramble the player names and league + team names? Like how OOTP used to be before the MLB license. That I would’ve been fine with. We’re talking save files being nuked that are so far in the future that all the active scrambled Japanese players were fictional people anyway.

Part of me wants to take the time to scramble the South African leagues to fictional Japanese leagues…but I’m not sure what the point is when the game has turned hundreds if not thousands of players are now South Africans. So the other part of me wants to say screw this, I’m done. Have bought OOTP every year for almost a decade and I might quit for good over this lazy, anti-player implementation.

[pauwoo]

Originally Posted by tm1681

I think this is the last time I'll post on this tonight, but it's simple:


There is no way that either OOTP Developments or Com2US would have willingly done something that would have so clearly, easily, and obviously riled up its userbase.

Just read what you posted here… https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...&postcount=212

Good context from your SI experience, appreciate that perspective. Certainly doesn’t paint Konami in a positive light - I don’t have much experience with them or their games. When this was happening to SI, do you recall the existing saves of end users being altered? I believe there have been two separate t&c’s come through on my copy of 23 in the last couple of weeks… I probably should have read those.

[tm1681]

Originally Posted by pauwoo

Good context from your SI experience, appreciate that perspective. Certainly doesn’t paint Konami in a positive light - I don’t have much experience with them or their games. When this was happening to SI, do you recall the existing saves of end users being altered? I believe there have been two separate t&c’s come through on my copy of 23 in the last couple of weeks… I probably should have read those.

FM save games are frequently too complex to retroactively edit, but here's the current situation:

All Japanese clubs have their names scrambled when moved to the in-game database.

No players or staff from Japanese clubs are extracted from the research database to the in-game database. There aren't even any fake players.

The J-League 1 and J-League 2 exist in name only, and with fake names.

The Japanese national team has fake players in-game.

Surprisingly, discussion of J-League mods is allowed on Sports Interactive's modding forum, but I think it's because the sheer amount of work needed to put the Japanese pyramid into the game is massive. Making Japan completely means adding/modifying nearly 10,000 players & staff (much less if you were only doing J-League 1&2 but people go all out), modifying dozens of "fake" clubs, changing numerous "fake" competitions, and if you're into immersion adding decades of competition histories.

That said, you won't find any major Japan mods in the official FM23 Steam workshop because there aren't supposed to be any there.

[PSUColonel]

Another point to consider…missing Japanese leagues from that sport (football) isn’t the same problem that it is in baseball. In baseball, it’s a top two league in the world. Which obviously affects the simulation experience in terms of realism much differently.

[tm1681]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Another point to consider…missing Japanese leagues from that sport (football) isn’t the same problem that it is in baseball. In baseball, it’s a top two league in the world. Which obviously affects the simulation experience in terms of realism much differently.

At the same time, Sports Interactive is in the process of adding women's football to FM and in that side of the game Japan has won a World Cup and made the final of another. So there it is a notable issue.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Here's what I'd like an answer to ASAP.

Let's say I'm playing a historical MLB league in 1976, no interest in Japanese baseball, its players or its teams. I'm importing real historical rookies. 1976 flips over to 1977, and does Randy Bass (a) import normally, no worries, (b) not import at all, or (c) import as some guy with a random name?

Similar question, but now I'm playing a present-day league. I'm in 2027 in my hypothetical sim and Jo Adell has become a solid contributor with the Angels. Meanwhile, let's say the real-life Adell signs with a Japanese baseball team. Is there any chance I get up one morning and Jo Adell in my game is scrambled into some other player?

I am trying to avoid being too hyperbolic here. I don't care about Japanese leagues personally. However, this intrusion into saved games feels pretty shocking. I am also not so sure OOTPD is on strong legal footing regarding its customers, but I don't practice that area of law so I don't want to get ahead of my skis.

[astnhnnh]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Here's what I'd like an answer to ASAP.

Let's say I'm playing a historical MLB league in 1976, no interest in Japanese baseball, it's players or its teams. I'm importing real historical rookies. 1976 flips over to 1977, and does Randy Bass (a) import normally, no worries, (b) not import at all, or (c) import as some guy with a random name?

Similar question, but now I'm playing a present-day league. I'm in 2027 in my hypothetical sim and Jo Adell has become a solid contributor with the Angels. Meanwhile, let's say the real-life Adell signs with a Japanese baseball team. Is there any chance I get up one morning and Jo Adell in my game is scrambled into some other player?

I am trying to avoid being too hyperbolic here. I don't care about Japanese leagues personally. However, this intrusion into saved games feels pretty shocking. I am also not so sure OOTPD is on strong legal footing regarding its customers, but I don't practice that area of law so I don't want to get ahead of my skis.

Here's my thought - let's say I've simmed through 2031 and 40 year old Mike Trout has signed a one year deal with the Hiroshima Carp. Mind you, this is a player who in reality has never and would never consider playing a single game in the ***, but simulation baseball can produce wacky results. If I open that save right now, Mike Trout is just obliterated from my league and some random fictional South African player now holds all of his MLB stats and records? Because he fictionally signed with a Japanese team ten years into my league? Am I understanding this correctly?

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by astnhnnh

Here's my thought - let's say I've simmed through 2031 and 40 year old Mike Trout has signed a one year deal with the Hiroshima Carp. Mind you, this is a player who in reality has never and would never consider playing a single game in the ***, but simulation baseball can produce wacky results. If I open that save right now, Mike Trout is just obliterated from my league and some random fictional South African player now holds all of his MLB stats and records? Because he fictionally signed with a Japanese team ten years into my league? Am I understanding this correctly?

According to some tests another guy ran, yes that would happen. It happened to a couple guys in his league that in reality never played in Japan. Michael Chavis and Jt chargois

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Yeesh, that's quite bad, but it's also different from my question. To put all my cards on the table, if I cared about Japanese baseball or had invested a great deal of time into a sim where something awful like that happened, I would consider requesting a refund and would expect OOTPD to comply.

But nothing like that happened to me. My questions are more prospective:

- Can I start and play a historical game without finding major league players tampered with through this new patch? (the Bass example)
- Can I start and play a present day league without worrying that future real-life events will cause OOTP to tamper with my save in the future? (the Adell example)

If the answer to either of these questions is no, we appear to have a problem where OOTPD has promised something it is no longer capable of delivering.

[astnhnnh]

I'm not expecting answers, mostly just thinking aloud here. I understand if ***/Konami put the screws to Com2Us and they had to scramble, I get there was likely no easy solution here. But a few things are bugging me.

Why screw with the save files? How are my OOTP23 saves any more sensitive than my OOTP22 or OOTP21 saves?

And assuming modifying everyone's save files was part of the remedy to avoid legal action, why no warning? I've looked back through the board and there's a serious lack of communication regarding what these patches would actually do. I put plenty of hours into save files over the past few weeks and months that I may not have had I known my game would be irreparably altered.

Why change all the Japanese players to South African? I guess this is relatively minor but it just totally breaks any immersion to have the second best league on Earth be South African. Why couldn't they be converted to fictional Japanese teams and players? I'm having trouble understanding how they could prevent OOTP from implementing a totally fictional Japanese league. It's not ideal but would have been preferable.

And finally, why did this game ever ship with an unlicensed league in the first place? I've played this game long enough to remember when the standard MLB league was made up of fictional teams. It feels like this whole thing could have been avoided from the jump.

I love OOTP and will likely continue playing but a lot of this has left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't even particularly care about the loss of the *** teams. It's how the whole thing was handled that really rubs me the wrong way as a long time customer.

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Yeesh, that's quite bad, but it's also different from my question. To put all my cards on the table, if I cared about Japanese baseball or had invested a great deal of time into a sim where something awful like that happened, I would consider requesting a refund and would expect OOTPD to comply.

But nothing like that happened to me. My questions are more prospective:

- Can I start and play a historical game without finding major league players tampered with through this new patch? (the Bass example)
- Can I start and play a present day league without worrying that future real-life events will cause OOTP to tamper with my save in the future? (the Adell example)

If the answer to either of these questions is no, we appear to have a problem where OOTPD has promised something it is no longer capable of delivering.

I honestly haven't seen anyone test this from a historical standpoint

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by astnhnnh

I'm not expecting answers, mostly just thinking aloud here. I understand if ***/Konami put the screws to Com2Us and they had to scramble, I get there was likely no easy solution here. But a few things are bugging me.

Why screw with the save files? How are my OOTP23 saves any more sensitive than my OOTP22 or OOTP21 saves?

And assuming modifying everyone's save files was part of the remedy to avoid legal action, why no warning? I've looked back through the board and there's a serious lack of communication regarding what these patches would actually do. I put plenty of hours into save files over the past few weeks and months that I may not have had I known my game would be irreparably altered.

Why change all the Japanese players to South African? I guess this is relatively minor but it just totally breaks any immersion to have the second best league on Earth be South African. Why couldn't they be converted to fictional Japanese teams and players? I'm having trouble understanding how they could prevent OOTP from implementing a totally fictional Japanese league. It's not ideal but would have been preferable.

And finally, why did this game ever ship with an unlicensed league in the first place? I've played this game long enough to remember when the standard MLB league was made up of fictional teams. It feels like this whole thing could have been avoided from the jump.

I love OOTP and will likely continue playing but a lot of this has left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't even particularly care about the loss of the *** teams. It's how the whole thing was handled that really rubs me the wrong way as a long time customer.

In reality, out of all the leagues ib the game... only mlb and kbo have licenses

[tm1681]

Originally Posted by astnhnnh

And finally, why did this game ever ship with an unlicensed league in the first place?

Lots of sports games, especially simulation games, have unlicensed teams and leagues.

FIFA has unlicensed teams within licensed leagues because some teams didn't allow their official properties to be used (foreign country IP issues).

Football Manager has always had a certain amount of unlicensed teams and leagues.

Franchise Hockey Manager has unlicensed teams and leagues too.

I'm pretty sure Front Office Football has never had a license of any kind.

Lots of MLB games over the years have had agreements with the players but not licenses for the teams, meaning real players and their likenesses but fake team names and colors.

[astnhnnh]

Originally Posted by tm1681

Lots of sports games, especially simulation games, have unlicensed teams and leagues.

FIFA has unlicensed teams within licensed leagues because some teams didn't allow their official properties to be used (foreign country IP issues).

Football Manager has always had a certain amount of unlicensed teams and leagues.

Franchise Hockey Manager has unlicensed teams and leagues too.

I'm pretty sure Front Office Football has never had a license of any kind.

Lots of MLB games over the years have had agreements with the players but not licenses for the teams, meaning real players and their likenesses but fake team names and colors.

I suppose this is the danger of not properly licensing, then. It's just funny because long time OOTP players certainly remember when there were zero licensed teams in the game and all the default teams were fictional.

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by astnhnnh

I suppose this is the danger of not properly licensing, then. It's just funny because long time OOTP players certainly remember when there were zero licensed teams in the game and all the default teams were fictional.

That would be so much more preferred to what happened here

[tm1681]

Originally Posted by astnhnnh

I suppose this is the danger of not properly licensing, then. It's just funny because long time OOTP players certainly remember when there were zero licensed teams in the game and all the default teams were fictional.

I've been playing since either OOTP 3 or 4. I definitely remember when everything was fictional.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by astnhnnh

I suppose this is the danger of not properly licensing, then. It's just funny because long time OOTP players certainly remember when there were zero licensed teams in the game and all the default teams were fictional.

Indeed. I think what has annoyed people is that thye are now not allowed to mod the game to add certain things themselves. I don't personally care, because I play fictional leagues based in the US or England. But obviously I'm a minority on that lol