Way too many two way players - Page 2

Rain King · 06-30-2022, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

That said, are these two-way players actually getting playing time as two-way players? The game creates a lot of two-way players, but most of them suck at either hitting or pitching.

This is what I am trying to get at with my questions. A player being listed as a 2-way player does not mean they are being used as a 2-way player.

There are a lot of guys that come into baseball that have 2-way capabilities at least at the minor league level, but teams will typically choose to only develop one (occasionally these guys later flip like Rick Ankiel or Jason Motte).

If teams are actually using 4 or 5 guys as 2-way players, I agree that it is unrealistic and should be nerfed...but this isn't something I have seen (but admittedly have not yet simulated much into the future in OOTP 23).

nutt · 06-30-2022, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

Can you be a two-way player if you only hit or pitch? Lorenzen and Walsh are not two-way players.

Ok, so Lorenzen has not pinch hit, pinch ran, hit, or played the outfield this year. He hasn't played more than four games in the outfield since 2019, sadly.

I was just stating these guys are two-way, but then noticed Walsh is just hitting and hasn't thrown a pitch since 2019. Lorenzen---don't get me started. Reds wasted that talent away.

Marinersfan51 · 06-30-2022, 01:43 PM

The AI seems too eager to treat guys as two way players IMO. The generation of two way players in the draft pool is fine since there are plenty of prospects that could be either hitters or pitchers (or both), but if they are big league caliber at one and AA caliber at the other, they should be used as a one way player in the majors (and probably through the minors if they potential is much higher on one side of the ball).

For example Michael Harris II was viewed by some teams as a pitcher pre-draft, but the Braves thought he was such a good hitting prospect that they didn't even attempt to have him pitch. Some other team may have treated him as a two way player, but the Braves didn't.

Once a player is big league caliber on one side of the ball, they should focus on that and be an emergency only player on the other.

bwiese3908 · 06-30-2022, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain King

I'm curious. How are teams going about using that many 2-way players?

Also, do you see any specific trend as to how those players were created (i.e. are they all draft generated, IAF, feeder league, etc.).

Yeah, it seems that if they are deemed good at one specific area (hitting or pitching) the AI has them do both even if they have better options.

My league is unique it is all draft no feeder leagues or free agents or anything. Although i do create 60 rounds of players for the draft each year, that may be skewing the pool.

It just seems like if they are excellent pitchers the AI forces them to hit and vice versa.

All anecdotal as this is the first time i have experienced this.

koohead · 06-30-2022, 05:03 PM

usage is probably key to determining if any adjustments need to be made. Players can have the potential to be 2 way players, but how many actually get used in that way (minors, majors, whatever) should be a rarity. The top prospects coming out of college won't be 2 way stars, but college rosters have an abundance of players who play a position and fill in as relief pitchers or the occasional spot start. go down into D2 or D3, and that number increases. so yes, there should be plenty of fringy 2 way players. but the AI should be tweaked in such a way that only the cream of the crop are actually used that way.
For example, here is an article that MLB.com did on the 2020 draft class where they highlighted just the top 10 potential 2-way players. https://www.mlb.com/news/top-two-way...ael%20Lorenzen. Look down the list into honorable mention and you'll see Max Meyer. Household name in terms of prospects right? but he's know for his pitching...but he put up respectable batting numbers in college. I don't see the Marlins toying around with him DH'ing or anything...but he has the POTENTIAL to be one based on ratings.

mrowland · 06-30-2022, 06:08 PM

10-12 years into each season I do, I notice this too. And when I turn it off for a particular player, the next season, the AI turns it right back on for that player unless I force them to a position. It is usually 2-3 per MLB team that I notice, which is way too many for the entire league.

Mike D · 06-30-2022, 06:20 PM

Based on my experience with time travel, I can be certain that the number of two-way players OOTP produces for future seasons is correct.

PSUColonel · 08-09-2022, 12:06 AM

I would like to re-visit this issue and see what others think before I potentially bring it to the attention of the developers. Is this something we all feel needs some tweaking?

I think it likely may be, but I would still like to get some more opinions about it.

locuspc · 08-09-2022, 01:28 AM

The issue is the AI's use of the Ohtani rule. A two-way player pitcher shouldn't be DH-ing while pitching unless he's a better hitter than the player who would be DH-ing otherwise. The AI will run the pitcher out there in the DH slot so long as he has a bare minimum of batting ability, which is bad AI.

If this AI issue were tweaked, I think the number of two-way players is fine. There are plenty of pitchers who hit well enough in high school or college to correspond with the two-way players you see in the game. The problem is just that the AI is overly eager to use the players in both roles even when inappropriate. If the AI were fixed, you wouldn't notice the problem.

Two-way players aren't rare, Ohtani is rare. The problem is the AI treats every pitcher who can hold a bat like Ohtani.

locuspc · 08-09-2022, 01:32 AM

To add to that, there are also a good number of two way players who are primarily batters who can sort of pitch, but they don't cause any problems, because the AI knows not to put them in the starting rotation. The way the AI uses them, they just look like batters, and it's only if you delve into the ratings you'd discover they had fringy pitching capabilities too. This is realistic to the way such players are used in real life. Ideally the way the AI handles pitching-first two way players would be modelled on this success.

06-30-2022, 05:03 PM	#25
koohead Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,233	usage is probably key to determining if any adjustments need to be made. Players can have the potential to be 2 way players, but how many actually get used in that way (minors, majors, whatever) should be a rarity. The top prospects coming out of college won't be 2 way stars, but college rosters have an abundance of players who play a position and fill in as relief pitchers or the occasional spot start. go down into D2 or D3, and that number increases. so yes, there should be plenty of fringy 2 way players. but the AI should be tweaked in such a way that only the cream of the crop are actually used that way. For example, here is an article that MLB.com did on the 2020 draft class where they highlighted just the top 10 potential 2-way players. https://www.mlb.com/news/top-two-way...ael%20Lorenzen. Look down the list into honorable mention and you'll see Max Meyer. Household name in terms of prospects right? but he's know for his pitching...but he put up respectable batting numbers in college. I don't see the Marlins toying around with him DH'ing or anything...but he has the POTENTIAL to be one based on ratings. __________________ GM - New Jersey Bears of the NPBL;

06-30-2022, 06:20 PM	#27
Mike D Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a van, down by the river Posts: 2,802	Based on my experience with time travel, I can be certain that the number of two-way players OOTP produces for future seasons is correct. __________________ Sometimes the best laid plans will never get you laid the way you plan.

06-30-2022, 01:43 PM	#23
Marinersfan51 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 777	The AI seems too eager to treat guys as two way players IMO. The generation of two way players in the draft pool is fine since there are plenty of prospects that could be either hitters or pitchers (or both), but if they are big league caliber at one and AA caliber at the other, they should be used as a one way player in the majors (and probably through the minors if they potential is much higher on one side of the ball). For example Michael Harris II was viewed by some teams as a pitcher pre-draft, but the Braves thought he was such a good hitting prospect that they didn't even attempt to have him pitch. Some other team may have treated him as a two way player, but the Braves didn't. Once a player is big league caliber on one side of the ball, they should focus on that and be an emergency only player on the other.

06-30-2022, 06:08 PM	#26
mrowland Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 27	10-12 years into each season I do, I notice this too. And when I turn it off for a particular player, the next season, the AI turns it right back on for that player unless I force them to a position. It is usually 2-3 per MLB team that I notice, which is way too many for the entire league.

08-09-2022, 12:06 AM	#28
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,141	I would like to re-visit this issue and see what others think before I potentially bring it to the attention of the developers. Is this something we all feel needs some tweaking? I think it likely may be, but I would still like to get some more opinions about it.

08-09-2022, 01:28 AM	#29
locuspc Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 340	The issue is the AI's use of the Ohtani rule. A two-way player pitcher shouldn't be DH-ing while pitching unless he's a better hitter than the player who would be DH-ing otherwise. The AI will run the pitcher out there in the DH slot so long as he has a bare minimum of batting ability, which is bad AI. If this AI issue were tweaked, I think the number of two-way players is fine. There are plenty of pitchers who hit well enough in high school or college to correspond with the two-way players you see in the game. The problem is just that the AI is overly eager to use the players in both roles even when inappropriate. If the AI were fixed, you wouldn't notice the problem. Two-way players aren't rare, Ohtani is rare. The problem is the AI treats every pitcher who can hold a bat like Ohtani.

08-09-2022, 01:32 AM	#30
locuspc Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 340	To add to that, there are also a good number of two way players who are primarily batters who can sort of pitch, but they don't cause any problems, because the AI knows not to put them in the starting rotation. The way the AI uses them, they just look like batters, and it's only if you delve into the ratings you'd discover they had fringy pitching capabilities too. This is realistic to the way such players are used in real life. Ideally the way the AI handles pitching-first two way players would be modelled on this success.