When should I be promoting INT Complex Players?

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

Under a standard MLB game, I would use 25 for high A, 24 for low A, 23 for the complex, and 22 for the DSL.
Even the most marginal and late-developing 40-man roster players followed a path through the minors that did not violate those age limits, so it is hard to argue more leniency is needed.

My world has an advanced rookie level and a 30-round draft, so it is A+ at 25, A- at 24, R+ at 23, R at 22, and DSL at 22.

The limits can be raised by one year, but I find that makes it difficult for younger prospects to progress

Those seem reasonable.
I think the key to resolving my concerns is that you add the R+ level, which basically replaces the old short season A rung on the ladder and provides the missing link in the chain.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by MikeS369

How do you get the "Ratings relative to" button to show? I don't have that option in my game.

I forget exactly where it is, but somewhere in your league settings is an option to turn on relative ratings. It should be under global settings, if I remember correctly.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I forget exactly where it is, but somewhere in your league settings is an option to turn on relative ratings. It should be under global settings, if I remember correctly.

If you select a player there is a drop down menu for ratings relative to. Once you click the level it shows everyone in the org relative to what you chose until you switch it back. So be careful it is global and not just a quick peek. You might want to turn it back when you are done with it.

I generally do this when I am adjusting my minors. Set to ratings relative to what the league in what team I am filling up. Surprising sometimes this can be different if you select say AZ complex vs. Florida complex even though they are the same level. Seems to indicate at times some leagues at the same level have more talent than others.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

If you select a player there is a drop down menu for ratings relative to. Once you click the level it shows everyone in the org relative to what you chose until you switch it back. So be careful it is global and not just a quick peek. You might want to turn it back when you are done with it.

I generally do this when I am adjusting my minors. Set to ratings relative to what the league in what team I am filling up. Surprising sometimes this can be different if you select say AZ complex vs. Florida complex even though they are the same level. Seems to indicate at times some leagues at the same level have more talent than others.

Right..as you would expect. I think it would be far more realistic to simply ask your scout how he thinks a given player would fare at a given level….rather than a specific league.

[NoOne]

ASAP, up to 1 year in complex when younger. faster you get them into real system, sooner their ratings become accurate/useful. i'll dump any that can't make it to A-ball or higher. rather fill depth from draft, though they have clearly improve quality of scouting discoveries... they aren't 95% total trash and only suitable for rookie league, nowadays they can reach A-ball quite often.. can offer some filler value unlike before.

16 and young 17 yo i will more often let them use up that free svc year in international complex.. rather they be near 18 to start rookie league... I want to avoid svc time accruing in complex.

--- bout some other stuff mentioned...

consider age limits for rookie leagues and service time limts after that. service time rules don't work so well for 17-24 aged prospects from draft. And the old ones...

Those 23-24 aged prospects only have 2-3 years before their development time is over, anyway. No time for screwing around below A-ball for long if at all. young kids can have an extra year or two instead of being forced into promotion by a svc time rule geared toward avoiding college draftees sandbagging rookie leagues. 22-24 age limit for rookie league would handle more contexts well. they may start a season on roster, but if they have a bday, they only have to meet that rule if they go on injured list or otherwise move from the roster. so, you can still have quite a few players 1yr above maximum limit midseason.

Then, svc time limits after that (and maybe an age limit) help avoid player pooling at any particular level.. start with the svc time you think you want, then observe where the pooling occurs... sort by age and svc time and see what makes sense to even it out a bit, if necessary. No bias here - look into level above/below to make best decision to fix anything in simplest way

these things end up causing odd behaviours, odd player distribution at times. always good to make it more forgiving than the ages/exp you want to see at any level. Be willing to adjust if you see odd mil distribution of players, cause it is probably caused by the rules used. Even consider simulating out a bit and testing it - make sure it stays full throughout all the variances that occurs from drafting players for 30 teams.

i always keep ratings relative to mlb... this way you never are comparing apples to oranges. nothing gamey here... scout's don't use a different 20-80 scale for mlb vs prospects? still means the same things as opposed to 'relative to each level'... so what's truly "gamey," here? lol.

Plus, other factors mesh with this... age and performance help paint the picture. it's not a very clear one early on no matter how you do it and all ways are still based on the same info under the hood, derivative or not. So, can always decipher what is given in a very similar way.

service time for international signings are not counted the first year in ootp, but then they do start accruing pro svc time after that. This deviates a bit from RL, unless ootp has changed this in recent years.

so, if they are extra young, take advantage of that extra year and leave them in the complex at 16 (a young 17, maybe?) and under. if they have any hint of talent, i'd toss them in as soon as svc time starts, cause dev in int'l league is near nonexistent for most. 17+ isn't so bad in rookie leagues. should be able to avoid 16 easily enough and most will at minimum turn 18 before end of first rookie league season. Most won't have the ability to get beyond A-ball even if they look elite, so it's not like you are wrecking meaningful careers. if they have real talent, waiting for 17+ will help probability of development, ime, but if they are showing greater than appropriate ratings for rookie, i may not wait (bursting at seams to make me ignore that personal rule).

like someone else said or could be extrapolated - accruing svc time in intenrnational complex is a terrible idea 99% of the time. total waste; avoid it

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Right..as you would expect. I think it would be far more realistic to simply ask your scout how he thinks a given player would fare at a given level….rather than a specific league.

Well, the league names really don't mean anything, they are only a name for a league at "level X". If your AAA level is named PCL and you ask your scout how
your player would fare in the PCL, you are in fact asking how he would do at AAA. Aren't you?

All levels in MiLB leagues are the same (all AAA are equal to all other AAA same for AA, A, R etc.), unless you have them at different "reputations(?). Not sure if reputation is the right word but you can have different levels of a minor league within one level (IE, High A= 10 reputation and Low A= 5 rep. etc.). 1-10, with 10 being the highest. In this case then asking by league would be the most realistic as there are different expectations\abilities. IOW
your scout wouldn't have the same expectations of Joe Baseball at Low A as he would at High A even though they are both A level.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

If you select a player there is a drop down menu for ratings relative to. Once you click the level it shows everyone in the org relative to what you chose until you switch it back. So be careful it is global and not just a quick peek. You might want to turn it back when you are done with it.

I generally do this when I am adjusting my minors. Set to ratings relative to what the league in what team I am filling up. Surprising sometimes this can be different if you select say AZ complex vs. Florida complex even though they are the same level. Seems to indicate at times some leagues at the same level have more talent than others.

Yes, but you have to make sure relative ratings are enabled in the league settings. Or at least you had to in previous versions (I don't have 23 yet). I believe the default has always been that they are on, but the person asking must have them off if the dropdown isn't available on player pages.

[zevus]

Originally Posted by NoOne

Those 23-24 aged prospects only have 2-3 years before their development time is over, anyway.

Wasn't this even lowered some for 23? Seems a bit odd to me .. or, rather, it should be more dependent on position.

Many (or most) starting pitchers, esp., (setting aside such things like the "Wakefield Evolution") this would be more like 25-28 y/o.

[MikeS369]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I forget exactly where it is, but somewhere in your league settings is an option to turn on relative ratings. It should be under global settings, if I remember correctly.

Found it. Thank you.

[SetonHallPirate]

Just a stupid question...isn't having both the DSL and the International Complex a duplication of the same level? Wouldn't it make more sense to, say, have International Complex players be eligible for the DSL? (is there a way to do this?)

[andyhdz]

Originally Posted by SetonHallPirate

Just a stupid question...isn't having both the DSL and the International Complex a duplication of the same level? Wouldn't it make more sense to, say, have International Complex players be eligible for the DSL? (is there a way to do this?)

I fully agree with you. The problem is I started doing just that and saw that the INTL complex players were accruing service time when I put them in my DSL tournament so I dont' know if it is a bug or it's because I setup the tournament wrong as developmental. I have now switched back to having a real DSL league and set up age and service time limits (21 years max 2 service years) to force the good INTL players to transition to stateside rookie leagues or higher after a while. Of course this allows the AI to demote stateside INTL players back to the DSL if they meet the requirements which is not realistic at all but oh well.

[jimmysthebestcop]

I turned the Northwood league into a tourney for int players. Works great. They don't gain service time as it's tournament.

The biggest reason not to promote directly from int to rookie ball is actually fielding.

Ever notice how a cf or ss will have no range or arm etc. I've never seen it improve when promoting.

Best is random gain while in INT. sometimes they can't even play 1b. Basically will only dh.

Better to promote and instantly trade before they gain stats.

[KBLover]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

Under a standard MLB game, I would use 25 for high A, 24 for low A, 23 for the complex, and 22 for the DSL.
Even the most marginal and late-developing 40-man roster players followed a path through the minors that did not violate those age limits, so it is hard to argue more leniency is needed.

My world has an advanced rookie level and a 30-round draft, so it is A+ at 25, A- at 24, R+ at 23, R at 22, and DSL at 22.

The limits can be raised by one year, but I find that makes it difficult for younger prospects to progress

How do you find the AI is in promoting competent prospects up the ladder with these limits in place?

I've tried service time limits before but I notice the AI will keep good prospects below where they should be (including majors) because they are the best player to fill a spot and still meet the limits. They can't sent a lesser prospect at AA/AAA down because they are over the limit and won't cut the lesser guy so the rising A-ball prospect that's ready for the high minors has to keep playing in A-ball longer than he needs to.

I found that CPU teams were having a nice collection of prospects sitting in the minors because they could fill these slots. When I removed the limits and had the teams redo their organization, the good prospects hit AA, AAA, and a few in the majors.

Is 23 better at handling these limits?

[itsmb8]

The more I keep thinking about this, the more I find it'll never be perfect. Yes, you can create a DSL tournament and make the player pool complex players only, and then delete the default DSL entirely... but then it becomes even if you add service time limits and roster size limits to the league as per real life, if a player falls outside of that they will still sit in the complex and just not play (vs with the default league they'll be either moved up or cut, theres nowhere to just sit at).

On the other hand, if you leave it the way it is, players can player in a domestic minors level and still be able to move back.

Correct me if i'm wrong but it seems like there's a drawback whichever route you decide to go.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by KBLover

How do you find the AI is in promoting competent prospects up the ladder with these limits in place?

I've tried service time limits before but I notice the AI will keep good prospects below where they should be (including majors) because they are the best player to fill a spot and still meet the limits. They can't sent a lesser prospect at AA/AAA down because they are over the limit and won't cut the lesser guy so the rising A-ball prospect that's ready for the high minors has to keep playing in A-ball longer than he needs to.

I found that CPU teams were having a nice collection of prospects sitting in the minors because they could fill these slots. When I removed the limits and had the teams redo their organization, the good prospects hit AA, AAA, and a few in the majors.

Is 23 better at handling these limits?

I actually took the time to test this last night and results were awful. My recommendation on age limits should be completely disregarded for OOTP 23. I will try to write a post about this.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by itsmb8

The more I keep thinking about this, the more I find it'll never be perfect. Yes, you can create a DSL tournament and make the player pool complex players only, and then delete the default DSL entirely... but then it becomes even if you add service time limits and roster size limits to the league as per real life, if a player falls outside of that they will still sit in the complex and just not play (vs with the default league they'll be either moved up or cut, theres nowhere to just sit at).

On the other hand, if you leave it the way it is, players can player in a domestic minors level and still be able to move back.

Correct me if i'm wrong but it seems like there's a drawback whichever route you decide to go.

You do not delete the DSL. Just create or modify a pre existing tournament to use only INT Comple players. They dont gain service time and they get much better with the playing time aw opposed to just sitting in the int complex.

ive literally said this at least 3 times here. It works really well and should just be built into the game at this point.

i modified one of the template college tournaments. Northwoods i believe. just affiliated with MLB. assign random teams for affiliation and change level to int complex players only.

I would recommend having a really large int complex with many scouting discoveries. There never seems to be enough pitchers to full a roster. Think I made complexes 100 players and turned scouting discovers to maximum. Think its likes 40 or 50 a year.

that way every mlb team can full out a int complex team roster in the tournament.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

You do not delete the DSL. Just create or modify a pre existing tournament to use only INT Comple players. They dont gain service time and they get much better with the playing time aw opposed to just sitting in the int complex.

ive literally said this at least 3 times here. It works really well and should just be built into the game at this point.

i modified one of the template college tournaments. Northwoods i believe. just affiliated with MLB. assign random teams for affiliation and change level to int complex players only.

I would recommend having a really large int complex with many scouting discoveries. There never seems to be enough pitchers to full a roster. Think I made complexes 100 players and turned scouting discovers to maximum. Think its likes 40 or 50 a year.

that way every mlb team can full out a int complex team roster in the tournament.

Why not just create the tournament from scratch? Why would you have a DSL league AND a tournament league? I must be missing something.

[jimmysthebestcop]

From scratch? lol I am lazy. Way easier to adapt a tournament take like 5 clicks. From scratch like 100 clicks.

You need the int complex because those players are different. Its mostly to do with fielding. You can have a top 10 prospect who is a 3b with like 30 arm. If they get promoted to DSL i have never seen their arm improve. They are pretty worthless if they cant field.

So if you leave them for 5 years in the int complex tcr at least can improve fielding then you promote to the dsl.

game time doesnt help improve fielding ratings only positional. whats the point of having a #1 cf prospect if they cant actual field. this happens all the time with top int amat free agents and scouting discoveries. scouting discoveries is ok whatever. but int amat free agents should at least be able to field. maybe not well but at least field.

it is just sometimes the way they are generated they get like 30 for fields and its almost no chance to improve.

also some team only have 1 dsl milb team. and if you are playing with INT leagues players they cut, release or dont draft qualify for DSL. so it gives them a place to play and start an gives your int complex guys a place to start.

also int complex doesnt have service time while dsl does. that is the big difference

[SetonHallPirate]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

You do not delete the DSL. Just create or modify a pre existing tournament to use only INT Comple players. They dont gain service time and they get much better with the playing time aw opposed to just sitting in the int complex.

ive literally said this at least 3 times here. It works really well and should just be built into the game at this point.

i modified one of the template college tournaments. Northwoods i believe. just affiliated with MLB. assign random teams for affiliation and change level to int complex players only.

I would recommend having a really large int complex with many scouting discoveries. There never seems to be enough pitchers to full a roster. Think I made complexes 100 players and turned scouting discovers to maximum. Think its likes 40 or 50 a year.

that way every mlb team can full out a int complex team roster in the tournament.

Let me put this another way then...isn't the DSL and the International Complex (in real life) the same thing?

[jimmysthebestcop]

Real life I have no idea.