Warming up relievers - Page 2

Sweed · 05-04-2022, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I mean, do we want the AI to be even worse at managing a pitching staff? They're already much worse than most human players (who follow baseball) would be.

I'd much rather they work on improving the AI at knowing when to change pitchers and who to bring in, than work on improving the AI at figuring out 3-4 batters in advance who they might want to bring in.

The reason I will toggle it off.

Then I'll read the threads on how bad or good it works and reevaluate at the proper time.

What I don't want to happen is to play out an entire season (I play all of my games), get to the WS, come up in game 7 down 1 late and...
win the game due to the AI not being ready with the "right" P warmed up and ready to go.

md40022 · 05-04-2022, 07:33 PM

While figuring out how the AI can decide when and who to warm up at what point is way over my head - I think some of you are selling the developers short in thinking this type of thing would be impossible.

The AI obviously knows if it's a close game or a blowout, it knows what inning the game is in, who you next several hitters and can easily calculate L vs. R matchup as well as what pitchers' attributes would match well against what hitters' attributes...... again WAYYYYYYYYY over my head. But given what they've already developed, I think this is something that they can probably do.

Right now I play with warming up pitchers off so it's all a moot point to me anyway, haha but these guys are obviously really good at this exact type of thing given what OOTP is. Yeah, I'm sure we'd b*tch about it being flawed or not being as smooth as we'd want on first release lol, but I bet it's doable and within 1 or 2 years of refining it I bet it becomes pretty damn good.

Sweed · 05-04-2022, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by md40022

While figuring out how the AI can decide when and who to warm up at what point is way over my head - I think some of you are selling the developers short in thinking this type of thing would be impossible.

The AI obviously knows if it's a close game or a blowout, it knows what inning the game is in, who you next several hitters and can easily calculate L vs. R matchup as well as what pitchers' attributes would match well against what hitters' attributes...... again WAYYYYYYYYY over my head. But given what they've already developed, I think this is something that they can probably do.

Right now I play with warming up pitchers off so it's all a moot point to me anyway, haha but these guys are obviously really good at this exact type of thing given what OOTP is. Yeah, I'm sure we'd b*tch about it being flawed or not being as smooth as we'd want on first release lol, but I bet it's doable and within 1 or 2 years of refining it I bet it becomes pretty damn good.

I can only speak for me but I have never said impossible. I just don't think it's worth the development time and the annual 50 threads started every year saying how it's "unrealistic" or "so obviously broken" etc. etc. etc.. And that will happen even if it works perfectly.

I imagine they have put thought into it and how they would do it. Nothing has come of it, yet. That's not saying it won't and if it does? Great!

Simmo13 · 05-05-2022, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

On Average I would say 2-3 batters....depending if there is a mound visit or a long inning....but as a rule of thumb...I'd say 3 batters.

I seem to remember from a thread several years ago (!) that the warm-up "time" was 12/14 pitches and a mound visit accounted for 4/5 of those pitches.

curt · 05-05-2022, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweed

There is an option to have the relivers automatically sit down once they are warm so as not to burn themselves out. I think it's been in the game since at least v21? Maybe longer?

The only thing is they don't have a "stay warm" setting where they stay loose if that kicks in. However they also don't go cold fast either when they auto-sit.
In my experience their warm status will remain for a few batters and into the next inning if outs come fast.

Auto-sit works well and is what I do. Monitoring a guy that has sat down isn't anything like monitoring a guy to not burnout.

Where do you find the "stay warm" setting??

Sweed · 05-05-2022, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweed

There is an option to have the relivers automatically sit down once they are warm so as not to burn themselves out. I think it's been in the game since at least v21? Maybe longer?

The only thing is they don't have a "stay warm" setting where they stay loose if that kicks in. However they also don't go cold fast either when they auto-sit.
In my experience their warm status will remain for a few batters and into the next inning if outs come fast.

Auto-sit works well and is what I do. Monitoring a guy that has sat down isn't anything like monitoring a guy to not burnout.

Quote:

Originally Posted by curt

Where do you find the "stay warm" setting??

Note the bold. I said they don't have a stay warm setting.

andyhdz · 05-05-2022, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

I'd love to know what the holdup is. i think its kinda ridiculous that we're 24 versions into the series and the AI cant warm up pitchers yet.

Is there any baseball game either video game or sim that warms up pitchers? Waste of developing time that can be spent on better things.

Matt Arnold · 05-05-2022, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyhdz

Is there any baseball game either video game or sim that warms up pitchers? Waste of developing time that can be spent on better things.

It's on the grand list that would love to have in eventually. It does add a little extra to the in-game experience and planning.

But yes, it adds an entire extra complication to the pitching decisions when you have to start planning 2-3 batters ahead of time what might or might not happen. I mean, in a lot of situations, if you current guy strikes out the next 3 batters vs if they give up back to back to back HR, you need wildly different options available. Never mind trying to balance it so that you're not warming up guys and then sitting them down constantly during the game.

So yeah, I'd love to see it in. But there's a lot to do to do it right.

Sweed · 05-05-2022, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyhdz

Is there any baseball game either video game or sim that warms up pitchers? Waste of developing time that can be spent on better things.

When I last played The Show on ps3 they had warmups. The funny thing is they would be warming up Pitcher A and Pitcher B. The bullpen mounds are both being used, right? Then they would bring in Pitcher C all warmed up and ready to go. Must have been throwing in the tunnel. Not saying it happened all of the time but it did happen. Best guess is most never noticed at all. They saw guys throwing in the pen and assumed whoever the AI brought in was one of those guys.

This year I was lucky enough to snag a ps5 and did pick up The Show. I haven't noticed this behavior in my ps5 game but I haven't played a ton of games either.

md40022 · 05-05-2022, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweed

When I last played The Show on ps3 they had warmups. The funny thing is they would be warming up Pitcher A and Pitcher B. The bullpen mounds are both being used, right? Then they would bring in Pitcher C all warmed up and ready to go. Must have been throwing in the tunnel. Not saying it happened all of the time but it did happen. Best guess is most never noticed at all. They saw guys throwing in the pen and assumed whoever the AI brought in was one of those guys.

This year I was lucky enough to snag a ps5 and did pick up The Show. I haven't noticed this behavior in my ps5 game but I haven't played a ton of games either.

Just out of curiosity, in your opinion how is this year's version of The Show?

Taking it for what it is, I always used to think it was a pretty good game. Skipped the last several years though since I think I'm kind of growing out of the "gamey games". That said, I was kicking around possibly picking up this year's The Show just for the heck of it, but haven't pulled the trigger on it

Primary · 05-05-2022, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

But yes, it adds an entire extra complication to the pitching decisions when you have to start planning 2-3 batters ahead of time what might or might not happen.

somewhat related to this, I'm wondering if the AI thinks differently with the 3 batter rule and without? I've noticed my AI manager doing a poor job at using my bullpen and I'm curious if I switched the 3 batter rule off if I would see better results?

Brad K · 05-05-2022, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I do know the Developers' are looking into having the AI warmup pitchers...but it's far from a done deal I think...and there are no promises on the table. I just know they are looking into the possibility.

I sure hope not. AI doesn't need any more disadvantages.

PSUColonel · 05-05-2022, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

I sure hope not. AI doesn't need any more disadvantages.

well, like Matt said...if it's done correctly, and the AI can handle it...then I DO think it would be a welcome strategic feature. This is of course IF it works well.

texasmame · 05-06-2022, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by md40022

Thanks for this info. Sounds like there's some options in place to make it more realistic and give you more control than what other games offer..... I think I might start to tinker with this a little bit.

This was something I lobbied hard for several versions back. Having guys throw in the bullpen until they were "tired" was just beyond stupid and unacceptable. They did the right thing and added the option to auto sit them.

Brad K · 05-06-2022, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by md40022

While figuring out how the AI can decide when and who to warm up at what point is way over my head - I think some of you are selling the developers short in thinking this type of thing would be impossible.

It is impossible to do as good as a human would do. At best it can be as good as the best human in the world if that person can be identified and the programming based on the decisions he would make.

Now for the people who believe not requiring AI to warm up relievers is letting AI cheat, well, they can turn off the requirement that they warm up relievers.

Before computers became so capable and players got the idea AI should be on equal ground with them a "Help AI" switch was in many games. That should never have ended.

Brad K · 05-06-2022, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

well, like Matt said...if it's done correctly, and the AI can handle it...then I DO think it would be a welcome strategic feature. This is of course IF it works well.

How? AI doesn't care what it's strategic features are!!!

PSUColonel · 05-06-2022, 08:34 AM

At least with the 3 batter minimum rule, it limits the number of possibilities. Prior to this rule, I'd agree it was almost impossible.

Sweed · 05-06-2022, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by md40022

Just out of curiosity, in your opinion how is this year's version of The Show?

Taking it for what it is, I always used to think it was a pretty good game. Skipped the last several years though since I think I'm kind of growing out of the "gamey games". That said, I was kicking around possibly picking up this year's The Show just for the heck of it, but haven't pulled the trigger on it

On ps5 it is an eye candy dream. It plays a great game of baseball with the caveat it's still a "button masher" but.. it is a great button masher

I play in simulation mode and it is fun, the physics are great, and as always you play a bit of "slider tag" trying to find what will work.

I have never played in "manager mode". Maybe on simulation settings and manage only it would scratch the itch of OOTP players? But that would be all it would do, just scratch the itch. IMHO it wouldn't even come to the level of a "poor man's OOTP".

It is good fun, the visuals on ps5 are absolutely stunning. If I could only have one? Well, I have fun with The Show, it's a game. I live alongside the players, managers, and staff in my OOTP world

05-04-2022, 07:33 PM	#22
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 778 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	While figuring out how the AI can decide when and who to warm up at what point is way over my head - I think some of you are selling the developers short in thinking this type of thing would be impossible. The AI obviously knows if it's a close game or a blowout, it knows what inning the game is in, who you next several hitters and can easily calculate L vs. R matchup as well as what pitchers' attributes would match well against what hitters' attributes...... again WAYYYYYYYYY over my head. But given what they've already developed, I think this is something that they can probably do. Right now I play with warming up pitchers off so it's all a moot point to me anyway, haha but these guys are obviously really good at this exact type of thing given what OOTP is. Yeah, I'm sure we'd b*tch about it being flawed or not being as smooth as we'd want on first release lol, but I bet it's doable and within 1 or 2 years of refining it I bet it becomes pretty damn good.

05-06-2022, 08:34 AM	#37
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,144	At least with the 3 batter minimum rule, it limits the number of possibilities. Prior to this rule, I'd agree it was almost impossible.