November 10th: Update

Jim Trunzo · 11-10-2003, 12:52 PM

Gentlemen (and Ladies?):

Okay, have gone back and corrected -- where necessary -- the spellings that you have mentioned and added fighters, again where necessary. I'm not completely done but will finish up sometime tonight. Many of the nicknames and most of the fighters were in the "found 400!", thankfully.

However, several notes that should be of interest:

1. There will be two different sets of ratings for Muhammad Ali. The first set will be taken from statistics and research leading up to Ali's ban from boxing and the second will be based upon his return to the ring until the end of his career. It's quite interesting to break Ali's record into two rather distinct sets. For the sake of simplicity (and I KNOW it's not accurate from a chronological standpoint), the pre-ban Ali will come under the Cassius Clay name and the post-ban Ali will come under - of course, Muhammad Ali. This is subject to change, however. We may simply have two Ali's and use Clay as the nickname - not sure how we have to handle it for record-keeping purposes.

2. We have gone to extensive work, breaking Sugar Ray Robinson's record into two parts - welterweight and middleweight. Again, the end results should provide great accuracy and not a little controversy.

3. And just to reassure everyone - Mel Turnbow and Frank Bruno have definitely been added.

More to come . . .

Jim Trunzo

wildhawke11 · 11-10-2003, 01:40 PM

Jim
Cant we have Roy Jones as a Middleweigh * the elite division*
I mean Jim how can Roy say he is the best P4P when he wont face

Marcel Cerdan
Dick Tiger
Ray Robinson
Hagler
Monzon
Zale
Walker
Greb :-)

Bill Zahn · 11-10-2003, 02:45 PM

Jim,
Pandora's box is open now. Clay and Ali, Robinson as a WW and MW sounds great. But I fear it's a slippery slope you're walking.

BZ

11-10-2003, 03:15 PM

Let's see, if Jim adds all the necessary information to the fighter list tonight, the game should be ready shortly thereafter. I'm going to predict, Friday, November 14 (2003, of course

).

yabanci · 11-10-2003, 04:44 PM

they said the game wouldn't come out for a week after they accounce it, so everytime you come here and see that it hasn't been announced, you know it is at least one week away. My guess is January 2004.

swampdragon · 11-10-2003, 05:24 PM

I disagree with yabanci. Unless there are nasty problems with the graphics, we have to be almost there. It's been 45 days since beta testing started and all reports from Jim have been positive for a while now. 60'sfan's prediction looks pretty good to me. There's no way finishing touches could take until January, and there's no way OOTP will miss the holiday season with this release.

SBoyce · 11-10-2003, 07:34 PM

Jim,

My thoughts on the Ali/Clay name thing. Think about how the man himself would respond to his pre-ban fighter being named Clay. I don't think Ali would appreciate the name Clay being in the game at all. Why not name them both Ali and use "louisville Lip" as the young nickname and "the Greatest" as the old nickname. How do you differentiate between the young and old Foreman?

yabanci · 11-10-2003, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by swampdragon
I disagree with yabanci. Unless there are nasty problems with the graphics, we have to be almost there. It's been 45 days since beta testing started and all reports from Jim have been positive for a while now. 60'sfan's prediction looks pretty good to me. There's no way finishing touches could take until January, and there's no way OOTP will miss the holiday season with this release.

yeah, the fact that he's giving daily updates now instead of monthly is a good sign and you make a good point about not missing christmas. On second thought, my guess is the release will be between December 1 and 15. Given that he said on Nov. 8 that there's "a million picky things to do" and previously said that there would be a week's notice before it is sold, it just doesn't seem like they'll be ready to release until December at the earliest.

erickdamac · 11-10-2003, 08:47 PM

I like the Ali idea just one quick question, the old ali beats the young ali everytime right?

PittPanther · 11-10-2003, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildhawke11
Jim
Cant we have Roy Jones as a Middleweigh * the elite division*
I mean Jim how can Roy say he is the best P4P when he wont face

Marcel Cerdan
Dick Tiger
Ray Robinson
Hagler
Monzon
Zale
Walker
Greb :-)

Absolutely. . .Jim please include Roy as a middy.

wildhawke11 · 11-10-2003, 09:49 PM

Panther
So pleased to here from you again my friend
Hope you and your family are in the best of health.

Tell you Good Lady ever time i see you on line now my mind thinks
Stanley Ketchel -- what a fighter for his time wow

Xury · 11-10-2003, 09:52 PM

What about Mike Tyson? I personally feel he was (is) two different fighters - pre prison and post prison. Just for kicks, why not a 'pre Buster Douglas' Mike Tyson rating?!?

wildhawke11 · 11-10-2003, 09:57 PM

XURY
I feel pretty sure like in Title Fight 2001 there will be a archive group of fighters with Tyson etc etc there

JeffR · 11-10-2003, 10:19 PM

I'm really not sure I like the idea of separate versions of fighters for different stages of their careers. Maybe in a really extreme case like Foreman, who went ten years between fights and came back with a completely different body, or Tony Ayala Jr., whose career was interrupted by 17 years in jail. But if there are going to be two Ali's, why not a pre- and post-shooting Cleveland Williams, or a pre/post- "No Mas" Duran, or an early career/late career Jersey Joe Walcott, or any one of a few dozen other examples that'd be easy enough to come up with. The game has plenty of options for setting the career stage of a fighter and the mental attitude he comes into the ring with; I think those can cover even the unusual cases like Ali whose career doesn't quite fit the usual pattern.

I at least hope there'll be a third Ali, with ratings based on his entire career, instead of just half of it.

erickdamac · 11-10-2003, 11:23 PM

Yeah im sorda with jeffr here, cuz you wont get the same fighter i mean you judge a fighter what he does his whole career not break it down and have it where before he was bad or before this happend to him unless a george foreman who went 10 years and 30+ pounds more.

But then again you might want to have fights like Young ali vs. joe luis, Rather then old ali vs. joe luis, because i really do think joe luis has a better chance defeating young ali, a older ali is too smart for a Primed joe, not a old rocky joe a primed joe, so It dont bother me one bit, i just want the GAME! lol.

SBoyce · 11-10-2003, 11:40 PM

I tend to agree although the suspension cost Ali a few years and he came back with a much different style. He might fit in that extreme case catagory. Hopefully that will be very rare however. The ironic thing is that I don't want two of the same guy so I will probably fight them against each other to determine which is better and then use that one exclusively.

Tyson? The biggest difference between pre and post Douglass (he was in decline before prison) was the level of his competition. He didn't change styles or skills other than the usual decline with age. The key with Tyson is to find ratings that will demolish tomato cans but come up short against the very top guys. Use Tyson in his prime against Turnbow and should look impressive. Place him in post prime, against any of the greats and he should get controlled and beaten easily.

Cap · 11-11-2003, 12:34 AM

Sorry if my mind is wandering. You fellow homeowners out there may sympathise. Seems like there's always something. First it was the furnace, then the roof, then the eavestrough, then the washing machine, then my wife's car.....I'm going nuts.

Aside from that, everythin's jus peachy!

Cap

wildhawke11 · 11-11-2003, 12:52 AM

I said this a long time ago and i still stick by it.
I have Ali as my number 1 all time best Heavyweight
Yes i do Eric in spite of what you might think.

But because of the 3 year break enforced on Ali when in truth those could have been his peak years it is hard to judge at what point Ali was at his peak.

Ali himself stated he thought the older Ali would in fact have beaten Clay

Now this i feel is the problem in the game, they take the best of Clay combine it with the best of Ali and arrive at this mythical fighter who in fact never existed.

Style ---- in the archive 2 disk Ali can fight as a boxer or a slugger lets be honest, he has enough without giving him more advantage.
He is a BOXER, if you favour him as a slugger then in fairness there are a lot more fighters who then should be given that choice.

Clay
style - boxer
defence - 6
take a punch 2
hitting power 7 he was up on his toes a lot.
intelligence 7 ? he was not as smart as the older Ali
fouls - very little

Ali
defence - 4
take a punch 1
hitting power 8 as he got a little older he planted his feet more.
intelligence 10
fouls a little more - he was inclined to hold

I wont bore you all by going on but i hope you can see what i am driving at.

Ali beat Frazier 2 out of 3 as we all know
I really feel that a peak Frazier would have beaten the peak Clay
Frazier was deadly and fast with that left hook when he was at his peak, and we all know Ali weakness if any was the left hook thrown quick.

Ali in fact taking amateur and pro fights into consideration was put down 7 times at least 5 of these were done with you guessed it -- the left hook.

I feel that a peak Ali would have beat most of the top 15 in maybe 7 out of 10 times.
But at the same time this is not Cooper, Quarry, Doug Jones, Ellis in the ring with him now this in fact is the cream of the cream and on a given night yes they may well have beat the Greatest good as he was.
My Thoughts Anyway

Xury · 11-11-2003, 01:03 AM

Good thoughts, man. Good thoughts...

Bring on the game!

Teraxx · 11-11-2003, 02:56 AM

the thing that links Clay and Ali that in each stage of his career, he faced down and KNOCKED OUT the most fearsome opponent of the day (Liston and Foreman)...I agree there should be two Alis, but don't forget how good the early one was....some experts I've heard claim when he KO'd Liston the second time, there may have been no better fighter to ever step foot in a ring..his apex they called it. The perfect fighting machine.

11-10-2003, 12:52 PM	#1
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 739	November 10th: Update Gentlemen (and Ladies?): Okay, have gone back and corrected -- where necessary -- the spellings that you have mentioned and added fighters, again where necessary. I'm not completely done but will finish up sometime tonight. Many of the nicknames and most of the fighters were in the "found 400!", thankfully. However, several notes that should be of interest: 1. There will be two different sets of ratings for Muhammad Ali. The first set will be taken from statistics and research leading up to Ali's ban from boxing and the second will be based upon his return to the ring until the end of his career. It's quite interesting to break Ali's record into two rather distinct sets. For the sake of simplicity (and I KNOW it's not accurate from a chronological standpoint), the pre-ban Ali will come under the Cassius Clay name and the post-ban Ali will come under - of course, Muhammad Ali. This is subject to change, however. We may simply have two Ali's and use Clay as the nickname - not sure how we have to handle it for record-keeping purposes. 2. We have gone to extensive work, breaking Sugar Ray Robinson's record into two parts - welterweight and middleweight. Again, the end results should provide great accuracy and not a little controversy. 3. And just to reassure everyone - Mel Turnbow and Frank Bruno have definitely been added. More to come . . . Jim Trunzo

11-10-2003, 01:40 PM	#2
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Jim Cant we have Roy Jones as a Middleweigh * the elite division* I mean Jim how can Roy say he is the best P4P when he wont face Marcel Cerdan Dick Tiger Ray Robinson Hagler Monzon Zale Walker Greb :-) __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

11-10-2003, 09:49 PM	#11
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Panther So pleased to here from you again my friend Hope you and your family are in the best of health. Tell you Good Lady ever time i see you on line now my mind thinks Stanley Ketchel -- what a fighter for his time wow __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010 Last edited by wildhawke11; 11-10-2003 at 09:54 PM.

11-10-2003, 09:57 PM	#13
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	XURY I feel pretty sure like in Title Fight 2001 there will be a archive group of fighters with Tyson etc etc there __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

11-10-2003, 11:23 PM	#15
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Yeah im sorda with jeffr here, cuz you wont get the same fighter i mean you judge a fighter what he does his whole career not break it down and have it where before he was bad or before this happend to him unless a george foreman who went 10 years and 30+ pounds more. But then again you might want to have fights like Young ali vs. joe luis, Rather then old ali vs. joe luis, because i really do think joe luis has a better chance defeating young ali, a older ali is too smart for a Primed joe, not a old rocky joe a primed joe, so It dont bother me one bit, i just want the GAME! lol. Last edited by erickdamac; 11-10-2003 at 11:36 PM.

11-10-2003, 02:45 PM	#3
Bill Zahn Bat Boy Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7	Jim, Pandora's box is open now. Clay and Ali, Robinson as a WW and MW sounds great. But I fear it's a slippery slope you're walking. BZ

11-10-2003, 03:15 PM	#4
60'sfan Guest Posts: n/a	Let's see, if Jim adds all the necessary information to the fighter list tonight, the game should be ready shortly thereafter. I'm going to predict, Friday, November 14 (2003, of course ).

11-10-2003, 04:44 PM	#5
yabanci Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 304	they said the game wouldn't come out for a week after they accounce it, so everytime you come here and see that it hasn't been announced, you know it is at least one week away. My guess is January 2004.

11-10-2003, 05:24 PM	#6
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	I disagree with yabanci. Unless there are nasty problems with the graphics, we have to be almost there. It's been 45 days since beta testing started and all reports from Jim have been positive for a while now. 60'sfan's prediction looks pretty good to me. There's no way finishing touches could take until January, and there's no way OOTP will miss the holiday season with this release.

11-10-2003, 07:34 PM	#7
SBoyce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 137	Jim, My thoughts on the Ali/Clay name thing. Think about how the man himself would respond to his pre-ban fighter being named Clay. I don't think Ali would appreciate the name Clay being in the game at all. Why not name them both Ali and use "louisville Lip" as the young nickname and "the Greatest" as the old nickname. How do you differentiate between the young and old Foreman?

11-10-2003, 08:47 PM	#9
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	I like the Ali idea just one quick question, the old ali beats the young ali everytime right?

11-10-2003, 09:52 PM	#12
Xury Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: A native Texan living in Georgia. Posts: 18	What about Mike Tyson? I personally feel he was (is) two different fighters - pre prison and post prison. Just for kicks, why not a 'pre Buster Douglas' Mike Tyson rating?!?

11-10-2003, 10:19 PM	#14
JeffR FHM Producer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kelowna, BC Posts: 17,425	I'm really not sure I like the idea of separate versions of fighters for different stages of their careers. Maybe in a really extreme case like Foreman, who went ten years between fights and came back with a completely different body, or Tony Ayala Jr., whose career was interrupted by 17 years in jail. But if there are going to be two Ali's, why not a pre- and post-shooting Cleveland Williams, or a pre/post- "No Mas" Duran, or an early career/late career Jersey Joe Walcott, or any one of a few dozen other examples that'd be easy enough to come up with. The game has plenty of options for setting the career stage of a fighter and the mental attitude he comes into the ring with; I think those can cover even the unusual cases like Ali whose career doesn't quite fit the usual pattern. I at least hope there'll be a third Ali, with ratings based on his entire career, instead of just half of it.

11-10-2003, 11:40 PM	#16
SBoyce Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 137	I tend to agree although the suspension cost Ali a few years and he came back with a much different style. He might fit in that extreme case catagory. Hopefully that will be very rare however. The ironic thing is that I don't want two of the same guy so I will probably fight them against each other to determine which is better and then use that one exclusively. Tyson? The biggest difference between pre and post Douglass (he was in decline before prison) was the level of his competition. He didn't change styles or skills other than the usual decline with age. The key with Tyson is to find ratings that will demolish tomato cans but come up short against the very top guys. Use Tyson in his prime against Turnbow and should look impressive. Place him in post prime, against any of the greats and he should get controlled and beaten easily.

11-11-2003, 12:34 AM	#17
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,969	Uhhhh, what was the question again? Sorry if my mind is wandering. You fellow homeowners out there may sympathise. Seems like there's always something. First it was the furnace, then the roof, then the eavestrough, then the washing machine, then my wife's car.....I'm going nuts. Aside from that, everythin's jus peachy! Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

11-11-2003, 12:52 AM	#18
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	I said this a long time ago and i still stick by it. I have Ali as my number 1 all time best Heavyweight Yes i do Eric in spite of what you might think. But because of the 3 year break enforced on Ali when in truth those could have been his peak years it is hard to judge at what point Ali was at his peak. Ali himself stated he thought the older Ali would in fact have beaten Clay Now this i feel is the problem in the game, they take the best of Clay combine it with the best of Ali and arrive at this mythical fighter who in fact never existed. Style ---- in the archive 2 disk Ali can fight as a boxer or a slugger lets be honest, he has enough without giving him more advantage. He is a BOXER, if you favour him as a slugger then in fairness there are a lot more fighters who then should be given that choice. Clay style - boxer defence - 6 take a punch 2 hitting power 7 he was up on his toes a lot. intelligence 7 ? he was not as smart as the older Ali fouls - very little Ali defence - 4 take a punch 1 hitting power 8 as he got a little older he planted his feet more. intelligence 10 fouls a little more - he was inclined to hold I wont bore you all by going on but i hope you can see what i am driving at. Ali beat Frazier 2 out of 3 as we all know I really feel that a peak Frazier would have beaten the peak Clay Frazier was deadly and fast with that left hook when he was at his peak, and we all know Ali weakness if any was the left hook thrown quick. Ali in fact taking amateur and pro fights into consideration was put down 7 times at least 5 of these were done with you guessed it -- the left hook. I feel that a peak Ali would have beat most of the top 15 in maybe 7 out of 10 times. But at the same time this is not Cooper, Quarry, Doug Jones, Ellis in the ring with him now this in fact is the cream of the cream and on a given night yes they may well have beat the Greatest good as he was. My Thoughts Anyway __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

11-11-2003, 01:03 AM	#19
Xury Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: A native Texan living in Georgia. Posts: 18	Good thoughts, man. Good thoughts... Bring on the game!

11-11-2003, 02:56 AM	#20
Teraxx Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 108	the thing that links Clay and Ali that in each stage of his career, he faced down and KNOCKED OUT the most fearsome opponent of the day (Liston and Foreman)...I agree there should be two Alis, but don't forget how good the early one was....some experts I've heard claim when he KO'd Liston the second time, there may have been no better fighter to ever step foot in a ring..his apex they called it. The perfect fighting machine.