Thread for player identification in team photos - Page 5

prewinter · 10-10-2021, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnfoto

The missing player is Maskrey. Here is a much clearer version.

Thanks! Now my last question is who is Prescott? A mystery for another time.

cinemaodyssey · 10-13-2021, 07:05 PM

Without doing a ton of research, I'm surprised Sal Campfield isn't pictured as he was their primary pitcher. He was pictured in the team composite early in the season.

cinemaodyssey · 10-13-2021, 07:19 PM

Here's one of those team pictures that has been printed in books, discussed online and still the IDs have never really matched up. Most prominently, the picture was featured in the book "The Western League: A Baseball History" in 2002 with the players listed as:

Top Row, L-R: Fred O'Neill, Thomas McAndries, G. Higgins (Pres.), Jack Ryan, Welday Wallace (Mgr.), Bill Mountjoy

Middle Row, L-R: Joe Straub, Ed Silch, Henry Lauser, Tom Hogan, Dan Dugdale, Frank Meinke

Bottom Row, L-R: Darby O'Brien, George Tebeau

I have many issues with those proposed identifications. The ones I think are correct are: O'Neill, Silch, Dugdale, Meinke, O'Brien and Tebeau. Higgins is most likely correct as well.

cinemaodyssey · 10-13-2021, 07:23 PM

Starting at the top, the proposed player is Fred O'Neill. I only have a woodcut as an exemplar, but it seems to match up pretty well. Also, O'Neill is listed at 5'7" and 142 lbs which also appears to match.

cinemaodyssey · 10-13-2021, 07:41 PM

For the player far right, ears and facial structure match decently for Mountjoy.

cinemaodyssey · 10-13-2021, 07:43 PM

This player is without question Ed Silch.

cinemaodyssey · 10-13-2021, 07:47 PM

Though I don't have an exemplar of Henry Lauser, I like Ira Phillips as a match for this player.

prewinter · 10-13-2021, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

Without doing a ton of research, I'm surprised Sal Campfield isn't pictured as he was their primary pitcher. He was pictured in the team composite early in the season.

I think the photo was specific to the group playing that day, with Maskrey. Frank Wells was a big deal with the club earlier, it was his first game back... Maybe the photo was commemorating that?

Otherwise, if it was the full club, there would be more players in it.

prewinter · 10-14-2021, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

Here's one of those team pictures that has been printed in books, discussed online and still the IDs have never really matched up. Most prominently, the picture was featured in the book "The Western League: A Baseball History" in 2002 with the players listed as:

Top Row, L-R: Fred O'Neill, Thomas McAndries, G. Higgins (Pres.), Jack Ryan, Welday Wallace (Mgr.), Bill Mountjoy

Middle Row, L-R: Joe Straub, Ed Silch, Henry Lauser, Tom Hogan, Dan Dugdale, Frank Meinke

Bottom Row, L-R: Darby O'Brien, George Tebeau

I have many issues with those proposed identifications. The ones I think are correct are: O'Neill, Silch, Dugdale, Meinke, O'Brien and Tebeau. Higgins is most likely correct as well.

Has anyone tried to contact the person who provided the photo to see if the IDs came from it directly? I think he was a member of the Denver SABR Chapter at one point.

Below is the caption for the photo from "The Western League". I will say when I read it, it isn't clear to me exactly who is who in the photo relative to the caption.

I would also point out that Tom Hogan isn't in Baseball-Reference. I first came across his name about a year or so ago, while I was researching the biography for Bob Hogan, who is attributed with playing for Denver in 1886 and 1887 (and St Joseph in 1887), when in fact it was Tom Hogan. Wherever those IDs came from, they were done based on an older source than Baseball-Reference was built from.

cinemaodyssey · 10-14-2021, 06:46 AM

I haven't contacted anyone yet regarding this photo. I had the same problem you had: where to start with the IDs, as the caption is a bit confusing. I think we can safely say it was taken near the end of the season as Dugdale wasn't signed until fairly late.

prewinter · 10-14-2021, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I haven't contacted anyone yet regarding this photo. I had the same problem you had: where to start with the IDs, as the caption is a bit confusing. I think we can safely say it was taken near the end of the season as Dugdale wasn't signed until fairly late.

Hogan was sold to Denver (from Leavenwoth) on August 12, 1886. This is how I think they are listed in the caption.

Update 5/11/2023: Based on an additional photo of the club shown later in this thread (Page 9), Player 4 is Straub. Players 7, 11, and 12 are not identified.

prewinter · 10-16-2021, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prewinter

Hogan was sold to Denver (from Leavenwoth) on August 12, 1886. This is how I think they are listed in the caption.

Reviewing previous posts on this website about Joe Straub, I see that the player identified at Straub is known to be Ed Silch. That leaves the player identified as Silch now unidentified. I also haven't found any evidence that Lauser (identified as Lanser in the caption) was on the club at the same time as Dugdale (identified as Dugan in the caption). Given that Lauser was a catcher, same as Dugdale, I could see where Lauser would have been released as soon as Dugdale was signed. Finally, a review of the boxscores from the Denver club in August and September reveal that Phillips certainly was on the club at that point, so he is most likely in the photo, as noted above.

Manager Wallace was manager of the Denver club on June 9th, and by June 22 was manager of the Topeka club. He is not going to be in the team photo. Rather, Manager McClintock is likely next to Pres. Higgins. I see McClintock's first name is given as Robert on Baseball-Reference, but I'm seeing William McClintock identified in Colorado papers as going to a meeting of the Western League clubs representing Denver after the season ended.

prewinter · 10-16-2021, 01:46 AM

Building on the information and indentifications above, I think the players can be assigned as follows:

prewinter · 10-16-2021, 01:47 AM

Next set...

prewinter · 10-16-2021, 01:50 AM

I think the player the caption identified as Silch is Ira Phillips, while the player identified as Lauser is actually Joe Straub. There is no other example of Straub to compare to, but it makes sense to me, if Lauser isn't in the photo.

prewinter · 10-16-2021, 01:51 AM

Wrapping it up with the two in front...

The final lineup I propose is
1) Fred O'Neil, 2) Tom McAndries, 3) Jack Ryan, 4) Billy Mountjoy, 5) George Higgins, 6) Robert (William?) McClintock, 7) Tom Hogan, 8) Frank Meinke, 9) Ed Silch, 10) Ira Phillips, 11) Joe Straub, 12) Dan Dugdale, 13) Darby O'Brien, 14) George Tebeau.

cinemaodyssey · 10-16-2021, 04:37 AM

I am in agreement with these identifications with the exception of Mountjoy and Ryan (which I would flip). Straub is a missing player so I think it's important that he be identified.

prewinter · 10-16-2021, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I am in agreement with these identifications with the exception of Mountjoy and Ryan (which I would flip). Straub is a missing player so I think it's important that he be identified.

Here's a comparison. I see Mountjoy in the chin, mouth and nose of Player 4. I can see the resemblance to Player 3 around the eyes; the eyes on Player 4 look maybe a bit farther apart. The neck matches Player 4; the neck on Player 3 looks too long, but that could be how the head is angled. The ears (that are visible) match what is visible on both players.

The hairline around the left ear of Player 3 doesn't quite match Mountjoy.

While it is clear the photo has some captioning issues, I'm inclined to go with Player 3 based on the caption. Sorry, that should be Player 4.

prewinter · 10-17-2021, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prewinter

Here's a comparison. I see Mountjoy in the chin, mouth and nose of Player 4. I can see the resemblance to Player 3 around the eyes; the eyes on Player 4 look maybe a bit farther apart. The neck matches Player 4; the neck on Player 3 looks too long, but that could be how the head is angled. The ears (that are visible) match what is visible on both players.

The hairline around the left ear of Player 3 doesn't quite match Mountjoy.

While it is clear the photo has some captioning issues, I'm inclined to go with Player 3 based on the caption.

Here is a comparison with another photo of Bill Mountjoy, taken from a scorecard for Cincinnati from 1885. I still think the hairline doesn't match up with Player #3, nor does the neck. Granted hairlines change, but from 1885 to 1886 I don't think it would change that much.

cinemaodyssey · 10-18-2021, 01:02 AM

I think the biggest obstacle is the angle that player #3 has his head. He is tilting and stretching his head/neck so it throws the perspective off a bit. Also, he played 1885 in Cincinnati and migrated west to Denver for 1886. I can see him letting his hair grow out since fashions were different between the East and West just as they are today. My final point is that there are no similarities whatsoever between the ears of your Mountjoy exemplar and player #4.

10-13-2021, 07:19 PM	#83
cinemaodyssey All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,997	1886 Denver Here's one of those team pictures that has been printed in books, discussed online and still the IDs have never really matched up. Most prominently, the picture was featured in the book "The Western League: A Baseball History" in 2002 with the players listed as: Top Row, L-R: Fred O'Neill, Thomas McAndries, G. Higgins (Pres.), Jack Ryan, Welday Wallace (Mgr.), Bill Mountjoy Middle Row, L-R: Joe Straub, Ed Silch, Henry Lauser, Tom Hogan, Dan Dugdale, Frank Meinke Bottom Row, L-R: Darby O'Brien, George Tebeau I have many issues with those proposed identifications. The ones I think are correct are: O'Neill, Silch, Dugdale, Meinke, O'Brien and Tebeau. Higgins is most likely correct as well. Attached Images Last edited by cinemaodyssey; 10-13-2021 at 07:52 PM.

10-13-2021, 07:23 PM	#84
cinemaodyssey All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,997	Starting at the top, the proposed player is Fred O'Neill. I only have a woodcut as an exemplar, but it seems to match up pretty well. Also, O'Neill is listed at 5'7" and 142 lbs which also appears to match. Attached Images

10-13-2021, 07:41 PM	#85
cinemaodyssey All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,997	For the player far right, ears and facial structure match decently for Mountjoy. Attached Images

10-13-2021, 07:43 PM	#86
cinemaodyssey All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,997	This player is without question Ed Silch. Attached Images

10-13-2021, 07:47 PM	#87
cinemaodyssey All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,997	Though I don't have an exemplar of Henry Lauser, I like Ira Phillips as a match for this player. Attached Images

10-13-2021, 07:05 PM	#82
cinemaodyssey All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,997	Without doing a ton of research, I'm surprised Sal Campfield isn't pictured as he was their primary pitcher. He was pictured in the team composite early in the season.

10-14-2021, 06:46 AM	#90
cinemaodyssey All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,997	I haven't contacted anyone yet regarding this photo. I had the same problem you had: where to start with the IDs, as the caption is a bit confusing. I think we can safely say it was taken near the end of the season as Dugdale wasn't signed until fairly late.

10-16-2021, 01:46 AM	#93
prewinter Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 279	1886 Denver Building on the information and indentifications above, I think the players can be assigned as follows: Attached Images

10-16-2021, 01:47 AM	#94
prewinter Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 279	1886 Denver Next set... Attached Images

10-16-2021, 01:50 AM	#95
prewinter Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 279	1886 Denver I think the player the caption identified as Silch is Ira Phillips, while the player identified as Lauser is actually Joe Straub. There is no other example of Straub to compare to, but it makes sense to me, if Lauser isn't in the photo. Attached Images

10-16-2021, 01:51 AM	#96
prewinter Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 279	Wrapping it up with the two in front... The final lineup I propose is 1) Fred O'Neil, 2) Tom McAndries, 3) Jack Ryan, 4) Billy Mountjoy, 5) George Higgins, 6) Robert (William?) McClintock, 7) Tom Hogan, 8) Frank Meinke, 9) Ed Silch, 10) Ira Phillips, 11) Joe Straub, 12) Dan Dugdale, 13) Darby O'Brien, 14) George Tebeau. Attached Images Last edited by prewinter; 10-16-2021 at 01:54 AM.

10-16-2021, 04:37 AM	#97
cinemaodyssey All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,997	I am in agreement with these identifications with the exception of Mountjoy and Ryan (which I would flip). Straub is a missing player so I think it's important that he be identified. Last edited by cinemaodyssey; 10-16-2021 at 04:39 AM.

10-18-2021, 01:02 AM	#100
cinemaodyssey All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,997	I think the biggest obstacle is the angle that player #3 has his head. He is tilting and stretching his head/neck so it throws the perspective off a bit. Also, he played 1885 in Cincinnati and migrated west to Denver for 1886. I can see him letting his hair grow out since fashions were different between the East and West just as they are today. My final point is that there are no similarities whatsoever between the ears of your Mountjoy exemplar and player #4.