Relievers v Starters in the Pen - Page 2

Hertston · 08-20-2021, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncap99

I guess what I'm saying is it makes no sense in the context of "real baseball" for a reliever to be better at anything than a starter. If they were better they would be starting. Tons of guys like Mariano Rivera and Dennis Eckersley who were failed starters (well Eck was actually pretty good for a while) became dominant bullpen guys.

Should that not be reflected in the game? HoF class relievers did not 'fail' as starters because they were not good enough pitchers, far from it. It just transpired that physically and/or mentally they, and their arms, were better suited to one or two innings of all-out effort rather than pacing themselves a little over five or six. Those factors might also (and frequently have) changed over the course of their career.

Personally, I think the best way to reflect this is the one that was discarded; starters gain a significant boost in stuff in exchange for a drop to 'reliever' stamina levels if they are used in the pen. There are problems with that, but IMHO they become largely insignificant if the stats at present dictate starters are preferentially used ahead of relievers anyway. The only thing needed to ensure proper balance is that the best starters do not become any better than the best relievers AS relievers. I certainly do not discount the possibly that in RL some of them might well have been, but I think the necessary 'gaminess' here outweighs any loss in historical fidelity.

professor ape · 08-20-2021, 08:44 AM

I guess that part of it is whether you look at the players in a larger world macro or focus in on what they actually did in baseball. It is true that most great relievers were starters earlier in their career and for whatever reason weren’t able to make it in that role. So if we think about the players in the big picture, then it makes sense that the great starters could outperform those who were strong relievers IRL. However, if you take the view that the starters have been trained and spent their careers as starters, then in the moment they may not be best suited to come out of the pen. They may be used to their routines and not cut out for performing on demand. They may not be used to walking into a high leverage situation with no time to “get a feel” for their stuff.
There is no right or wrong about it. I just find it to be a shame that the great relievers are so thoroughly marginalized in the game.

ncap99 · 08-21-2021, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by professor ape

I guess that part of it is whether you look at the players in a larger world macro or focus in on what they actually did in baseball. It is true that most great relievers were starters earlier in their career and for whatever reason weren’t able to make it in that role. So if we think about the players in the big picture, then it makes sense that the great starters could outperform those who were strong relievers IRL. However, if you take the view that the starters have been trained and spent their careers as starters, then in the moment they may not be best suited to come out of the pen. They may be used to their routines and not cut out for performing on demand. They may not be used to walking into a high leverage situation with no time to “get a feel” for their stuff.
There is no right or wrong about it. I just find it to be a shame that the great relievers are so thoroughly marginalized in the game.

Yep, I think in the context of the game it makes sense for great relivers to be great. In the context of real life baseball though if you were putting together a 12 man pitching staff of any players in history I do not think a true reliever is on that roster (which is essentially what we're doing).

Hertston · 08-21-2021, 08:00 AM

Just a thought.. would not a simple solution to the problem be to use much the same method used to allow playable defense positions? That is, if a starter did spend a significant amount of their career in the pen they can be put there, otherwise not? That could be done simply, or in slightly more complex fashion where such players carry both 'starter' and 'reliever' stats to be used as appropriate.

professor ape · 08-21-2021, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hertston

Just a thought.. would not a simple solution to the problem be to use much the same method used to allow playable defense positions? That is, if a starter did spend a significant amount of their career in the pen they can be put there, otherwise not? That could be done simply, or in slightly more complex fashion where such players carry both 'starter' and 'reliever' stats to be used as appropriate.

It certainly is a thought.

Kushiel · 08-21-2021, 01:45 PM

There are not enough great relief pitchers in the game to force everybody to use them. No lead would be safe for most teams.

ncap99 · 08-21-2021, 02:05 PM

Part of the issue is that relievers typically have great "stuff" both in real life and in the game, which is the least valued of the major pitching stats because everyone loads up on contact/avoid K as much as possible. They tried to make power more valuable this year based on what was said pre-release and it just hasn't happened. Guys with 80 contact and 130 power will probably get you 25-30 HRs but bat .190 making them trashcans. The meta right now is to load up on as much movement as possible and run a good defense, because if you try to run high K rate pitchers you'll just lose. This in turn makes power hitters worse and high stuff bullpen arms worse.

If they make stuff more valuable it would have a pronounced impact on true relievers because that is where they are strong. True relievers are essentially the power hitters of your pitching staff and power both pitching and hitting doesn't win you games in PT22.

08-20-2021, 08:44 AM	#22
professor ape All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The belly of the beast Posts: 1,498	I guess that part of it is whether you look at the players in a larger world macro or focus in on what they actually did in baseball. It is true that most great relievers were starters earlier in their career and for whatever reason weren’t able to make it in that role. So if we think about the players in the big picture, then it makes sense that the great starters could outperform those who were strong relievers IRL. However, if you take the view that the starters have been trained and spent their careers as starters, then in the moment they may not be best suited to come out of the pen. They may be used to their routines and not cut out for performing on demand. They may not be used to walking into a high leverage situation with no time to “get a feel” for their stuff. There is no right or wrong about it. I just find it to be a shame that the great relievers are so thoroughly marginalized in the game. __________________

08-21-2021, 08:00 AM	#24
Hertston Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 327	Just a thought.. would not a simple solution to the problem be to use much the same method used to allow playable defense positions? That is, if a starter did spend a significant amount of their career in the pen they can be put there, otherwise not? That could be done simply, or in slightly more complex fashion where such players carry both 'starter' and 'reliever' stats to be used as appropriate. __________________ Ballymahon Bassets (FTP)

08-21-2021, 01:45 PM	#26
Kushiel All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas Posts: 1,810	There are not enough great relief pitchers in the game to force everybody to use them. No lead would be safe for most teams. __________________ *Favente Deo supero*

08-21-2021, 02:05 PM	#27
ncap99 Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2021 Posts: 319	Part of the issue is that relievers typically have great "stuff" both in real life and in the game, which is the least valued of the major pitching stats because everyone loads up on contact/avoid K as much as possible. They tried to make power more valuable this year based on what was said pre-release and it just hasn't happened. Guys with 80 contact and 130 power will probably get you 25-30 HRs but bat .190 making them trashcans. The meta right now is to load up on as much movement as possible and run a good defense, because if you try to run high K rate pitchers you'll just lose. This in turn makes power hitters worse and high stuff bullpen arms worse. If they make stuff more valuable it would have a pronounced impact on true relievers because that is where they are strong. True relievers are essentially the power hitters of your pitching staff and power both pitching and hitting doesn't win you games in PT22.