Relievers v Starters in the Pen

[professor ape]

With the dump of strong starting pitchers in the FH2 missions, I renew my internal debate about how to build my pen. I have relievers like Gossage, Nathan, Kimbrel, Chapman, and others available but have starters including Roberts, Santana, Wainwright, and others mixed in. It may just be a mental block but I find myself having trouble putting the starters into setup and closer roles. Is my bias towards the relievers in those key relief roles in any way valid or am I holding myself back with this approach?

[daves]

True relievers bounce back from rest faster and can pitch more games in the bullpen.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by daves

True relievers bounce back from rest faster and can pitch more games in the bullpen.

That was my understanding. Right now I have an eight man pen with only Gossage and Chapman being the true relievers and Chapman is really there as a lefty specialist. Roberts is my closer now, Santana and Gossage are my primary setup men, and Chapman, Wainwright, Satchel, Joss, and Smoky Joe are my middle relief. I have secondary roles to create overlap in roles and allow for long relief. With my starters, I rarely have a reliever with over 70IP at this point so the longer recovery by the SPs in the pen has not been an issue.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by daves

True relievers bounce back from rest faster and can pitch more games in the bullpen.

That's the theory, but does it really work that way?

What I do know is the closer will pitch in non-save situation when it hasn't been needed in several games. Because--that's what happens in "real life", but PT isn't "real life", so it's tiring out your best reliever for the next game when the AI trots him out instead of a fully rested card. Furthermore, unlike real life, PT closers go 2 innings wa-a-a-a-y more often. That's why I prefer using 3 stoppers who according to Matt Arnold IIRC " a stopper will pitch until its arm falls off". So, therefore, everyone in my pen is a starter who can be a stopper if needed, or I have enough pitchers now to rotate in and out as needed, and if I bother to check. I assume, but haven't checked, that there is no programmed compunction to bring a stopper in, in a non-stopper situation and will use the most rested one when it does need to put one in the game.

So, I have 3 stoppers, and the rest middle relief with secondary role of stopper or long relief, but every card has starter stamina.

[OMGPuppies]

Originally Posted by professor ape

That was my understanding. Right now I have an eight man pen with only Gossage and Chapman being the true relievers and Chapman is really there as a lefty specialist. Roberts is my closer now, Santana and Gossage are my primary setup men, and Chapman, Wainwright, Satchel, Joss, and Smoky Joe are my middle relief. I have secondary roles to create overlap in roles and allow for long relief. With my starters, I rarely have a reliever with over 70IP at this point so the longer recovery by the SPs in the pen has not been an issue.

Make Kimbrel your closer.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by OMGPuppies

Make Kimbrel your closer.

I was in a dogfight to make the playoffs this week and he blew four saves with an ERA near seven in his first eight appearances. I benched him for this week but will give him a shot with the new season tomorrow.

[chazzycat]

While it is true that relievers can pitch more games back to back, that isn't a deal-breaker IMO. The biggest factor I think is just that the quality of starters available right now blow the true relievers out of the water. Kimbrel is the only true RP I'm using now.

[ncap99]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

While it is true that relievers can pitch more games back to back, that isn't a deal-breaker IMO. The biggest factor I think is just that the quality of starters available right now blow the true relievers out of the water. Kimbrel is the only true RP I'm using now.

Same here. I just moved Campbell to reserves. Just too many strong SPs. I think this matches up with real life, most relievers are failed (at some point) starters. If you took real life DeGrom and put him in the pen he'd be the best reliever in the league - but you wouldn't because he is far more valuable as a starter.

I am really struggling with my pitching staff after the latest card release. I had all the team missions completed so I have all of them, and it is hard to figure out the best combination. I had my worst season of diamond since I was promoted to that level this year, and although I think it was mostly offensive struggles that killed me (Musial with a .190 BABIP in 200 ABs type of stuff) I never really felt comfortable with my rotation.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by ncap99

I am really struggling with my pitching staff after the latest card release. I had all the team missions completed so I have all of them, and it is hard to figure out the best combination. I had my worst season of diamond since I was promoted to that level this year, and although I think it was mostly offensive struggles that killed me (Musial with a .190 BABIP in 200 ABs type of stuff) I never really felt comfortable with my rotation.

I’m going with Pedro, Glavine, King Felix, Cy Young, and Vida Blue in the #5 spot. I really should have Joss in there instead of Young but Cy is sitting at 287 wins and I like the idea of getting him to 300.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by professor ape

I’m going with Pedro, Glavine, King Felix, Cy Young, and Vida Blue in the #5 spot. I really should have Joss in there instead of Young but Cy is sitting at 287 wins and I like the idea of getting him to 300.

It's probably worth 1000 pp.

Originally Posted by ncap99

I had my worst season of diamond since I was promoted to that level this year,

2nd worst for me and first under .500 since 2031.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by bailey

It's probably worth 1000 pp.

I think it is either 2000 or 3000 but it’s not about the PPs. I just like the idea of getting him to 300 and he’s stayed solid for me so I’m not giving up too much.

[ncap99]

Originally Posted by bailey

It's probably worth 1000 pp.

2nd worst for me and first under .500 since 2031.

I finished the bare minimum to have a winning record (82-80), 31-37 after the all star break and 26-35 after the Thursday card drop, roughly. I know a big part of it was bad luck with experiments (Yastrzemski OPSing .449 in 104 PAs, similar numbers from Schmidt, Gaylord Perry giving up 6 ERs in each of his first 4 starts, stuff like that) but it was a bummer to see. My team scored 51 less runs this season than last and allowed 103 more...yikes. It was my worst run differential ever, not counting the one season I spent at PeL and got pounded.

But that is the beauty of PT, a season only lasts a week!

[Hertston]

Originally Posted by professor ape

That was my understanding. Right now I have an eight man pen with only Gossage and Chapman being the true relievers and Chapman is really there as a lefty specialist.

Have you come across any better leftie specialists than Chapman? I've been using him in that role for weeks having given up on him as a closer, but never got decent results from him. Is movement really so dominant in gold/diamond it negates his stuff and individual pitch values, which seem more than adequate?

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by Hertston

Have you come across any better leftie specialists than Chapman? I've been using him in that role for weeks having given up on him as a closer, but never got decent results from him. Is movement really so dominant in gold/diamond it negates his stuff and individual pitch values, which seem more than adequate?

In terms of actual relievers, no. I like my specialist to have the quicker recovery that RPs have so that he is more readily available. I’m giving Kimbrel a full season to see how he does. I have him in a split closer role with Roberts. I’ll only bump him if he is really blowing it and I’m in a tight race after the All-Star break.

ADDITION: Chapman pitcher 1.2 perfect innings with 3Ks and got the win in my opening day comeback victory. Kimbrel pitched a perfect 9th with 2Ks for the save. Clearly this is enough of a sampling to confirm that I am going to have the best bullpen ever this week.

[ncap99]

Originally Posted by professor ape

ADDITION: Chapman pitcher 1.2 perfect innings with 3Ks and got the win in my opening day comeback victory. Kimbrel pitched a perfect 9th with 2Ks for the save. Clearly this is enough of a sampling to confirm that I am going to have the best bullpen ever this week.

Got a good chuckle out of this one! Kimbrel has been with 1.0 WAR already for me this season in diamond through 14.2 innings, which is a pretty insane 3.0 WAR pace for a closer. He was very mediocre for me last year, but a large part of that was a .418 BABIP so I sort of discarded it.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by ncap99

Got a good chuckle out of this one! Kimbrel has been with 1.0 WAR already for me this season in diamond through 14.2 innings, which is a pretty insane 3.0 WAR pace for a closer. He was very mediocre for me last year, but a large part of that was a .418 BABIP so I sort of discarded it.

Kimbrel has been doing pretty well for me so far this season. His K/9 is running at about 16.0 in the early going. Chapman is now pretty much a pure lefty specialist at this point. He may not be in my pen much longer but I want to hand the spot over to another lefty. Right now he and Santana are the only southpaws in my pen.

[diamond3017]

Originally Posted by daves

True relievers bounce back from rest faster and can pitch more games in the bullpen.

I've never heard about this. Is that based on a stamina rating cutoff, or what position they're labeled as on their PT card? I don't get why pitchers with lower stamina would be more equipped to pitch more. Wouldn't the opposite make more sense?

Last year, I used three starting pitchers (Langston, Sutton, Verlander) in a traditional bullpen setup. Here's what their final numbers were:

Closer: 59 G, 68.1 IP
Setup 8th+: 58 G, 72.2 IP
Setup 7th+: 59 G, 76.1 IP

Would a "true reliever" really have that many more appearances than any of those guys?

[ncap99]

Isn't it also true that a starter (or any reliever with high stamina) loses less stamina for an appearance/pitch thrown? Is the idea that relievers recover quicker because they essentially are charging a smaller battery? Is there an advantage to pitching stats when you are 100% rested vs 95% or are there bigger cutoff ranges?

I know this isn't trying to be an exact replica of real life baseball, but there are plenty of examples of starters going to the bullpen and all of a sudden throwing 5 mph harder (increase in stuff) because they don't need to pace themselves through a 100+ pitch game. Sort of a weird example (hey, I'm a Twins fan), but Glen Perkins averaged in the low 90s as a starter but hit 96-97 when they moved him to the 'pen where he became pretty good for a while. I would assume that would come with a corresponding drop in stamina.

I guess what I'm saying is it makes no sense in the context of "real baseball" for a reliever to be better at anything than a starter. If they were better they would be starting. Tons of guys like Mariano Rivera and Dennis Eckersley who were failed starters (well Eck was actually pretty good for a while) became dominant bullpen guys.

[diamond3017]

Starters don't get a "stuff boost" in the pen anymore in PT, but they do in regular offline play. Starters will still have better strikeout numbers out of the bullpen, but I assume that is simply a result of pitching fewer times through the order.

[ncap99]

Originally Posted by diamond3017

Starters don't get a "stuff boost" in the pen anymore in PT, but they do in regular offline play. Starters will still have better strikeout numbers out of the bullpen, but I assume that is simply a result of pitching fewer times through the order.

I have not heard the amount of appearances a hitter has in a game having an effect on pitcher strikeout rate before, is that a confirmed thing? Honestly how would the game even do that besides in increase in pitcher stuff for the at bat or a decrease in contact for the hitter (same effect)?