Auction/Trade House Thoughts

[dkgo]

The one problem I see with trading is that it is basically just a way for people to get around the auction tax which will put "super" users who are in the discord or whatever even farther ahead of the independent players.

Trading is a solution to the problem of desired cards not being available on the auction house. I'd prefer a solution that focuses on solving that problem instead of it's symptoms.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by dkgo

The one problem I see with trading is that it is basically just a way for people to get around the auction tax which will put "super" users who are in the discord or whatever even farther ahead of the independent players.

Trading is a solution to the problem of desired cards not being available on the auction house. I'd prefer a solution that focuses on solving that problem instead of it's symptoms.

That is a good point. I suppose that there would have to be a tax component for any trading. The key right now is that there is an active underground trade market and other manipulative tactics which take advantage of the Buy It Now function. My first priority is to close those loopholes to minimize foul play by putting the ten minute delay on Buy It Now. The Trade House is a secondary consideration as I think trades could be fun.

[Tinkerman]

Originally Posted by dkgo

Trading is a solution to the problem of desired cards not being available on the auction house. I'd prefer a solution that focuses on solving that problem instead of it's symptoms.

I couldn't agree with anything more than this.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by Tinkerman

I couldn't agree with anything more than this.

Yup. The manipulation of the AH is the biggest priority. The Trade House function is a secondary consideration.

[Play4Thrills]

Originally Posted by dkgo

Trading is a solution to the problem of desired cards not being available on the auction house. I'd prefer a solution that focuses on solving that problem instead of it's symptoms.

If some of the AH manipulation is driven by the 50-auction limit, maybe that could be increased.

This was the first I heard of the flipping agreements, but it strikes me as nearly impossible to be unknown to the team, because you would see large spikes in easily calculable metrics: % of Player A trades with playerB; and % of purchases executed within X minutes of listing). For a game so dependent on data and economic analysis (and a functional AH), I can't imagine the flipping activity isn't already monitored and known.

[bailey]

Maybe there should be a maximum BIN of 10,000. If you want to sell a card for more then it's open bidding for 24 hours. That gives everyone who wants the card a fair chance. Below 10K who cares? Those cards are plentiful enough.

(I would not vote in favor of this suggestion, BTW. I trust the developers to monitor AH manipulation and take appropriate measures. )

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by bailey

Maybe there should be a maximum BIN of 10,000. If you want to sell a card for more then it's open bidding for 24 hours. That gives everyone who wants the card a fair chance. Below 10K who cares? Those cards are plentiful enough.

(I would not vote in favor of this suggestion, BTW. I trust the developers to monitor AH manipulation and take appropriate measures. )

A lot of the manipulation and point passing is done with cards below 10K. The question is; What is the drawback of having a ten minute delay on the Buy It Now button?

[bailey]

Originally Posted by professor ape

A lot of the manipulation and point passing is done with cards below 10K. The question is; What is the drawback of having a ten minute delay on the Buy It Now button?

Maybe, you answered already, but I didn't see it. What does that do???? So, 20 people hit the BIN during the delay, so the card gets assigned randomly, or what? 10 minutes is hardly a lot of time and how does that stop point passing? If somebody BIN's an iron card to pass 1000 points who is going to outbid that??

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by bailey

Maybe, you answered already, but I didn't see it. What does that do???? So, 20 people hit the BIN during the delay, so the card gets assigned randomly, or what? 10 minutes is hardly a lot of time and how does that stop point passing? If somebody BIN's an iron card to pass 1000 points who is going to outbid that??

The button would activate after ten minutes. While any one of us would miss a particular card being improperly sold at a steep discount, there are so many people out there that it would make for a very risky move. Say that someone with two teams wanted to move a Jackie Robinson card to their #1 team and put it up for 5K. Right now they can time it so it is up on the block for a few seconds at minimal risk. Even if just one other person saw the card up during the ten-minute hold, that would make it a 50-50 chance that the original owner would fail and lose their Jackie card for a mere 5K. I think that would be enough of a deterrent right there. In reality I would bet that at least a handful of people would spot the bargains which would crush the odds.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by professor ape

The button would activate after ten minutes. While any one of us would miss a particular card being improperly sold at a steep discount, there are so many people out there that it would make for a very risky move. Say that someone with two teams wanted to move a Jackie Robinson card to their #1 team and put it up for 5K. Right now they can time it so it is up on the block for a few seconds at minimal risk. Even if just one other person saw the card up during the ten-minute hold, that would make it a 50-50 chance that the original owner would fail and lose their Jackie card for a mere 5K. I think that would be enough of a deterrent right there. In reality I would bet that at least a handful of people would spot the bargains which would crush the odds.

I would be opposed to a delay of any kind on ALL Bins just to stop a handful of dubious transactions. It's like tanking--it just doesn't matter if you are playing your own game. Kris made it very clear in the beginning that moving cards between related accounts would be caught and dealt with and I trust that they are doing just that.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by bailey

I would be opposed to a delay of any kind on ALL Bins just to stop a handful of dubious transactions. It's like tanking--it just doesn't matter if you are playing your own game. Kris made it very clear in the beginning that moving cards between related accounts would be caught and dealt with and I trust that they are doing just that.

Is a ten minute hold that much of a hardship? It would not prevent standard bidding on the card during the short hold so you could still set a card at the minimum 15 minutes without impact. People could still Buy It Now prior to the close of those short auctions.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by professor ape

Is a ten minute hold that much of a hardship? It would not prevent standard bidding on the card during the short hold so you could still set a card at the minimum 15 minutes without impact. People could still Buy It Now prior to the close of those short auctions.

But then you would ruin the Discord AH Racket. The behind the scenes deal makers would no longer have their advantage.

[AdequateRandomGaming]

I'm not sure what the 10 minutes hold would accomplish, it seems too short of a time frame to really make a difference to be honest. There are definitely times in a 24 hour window where it's slow enough to not matter.
Silent auctions with the removal of BN, and highest bid hidden to all even the seller until card sells is probably the only way to get rid of that kind of behavior, but that's way too drastic a solution...it's 2021, the ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW crowd would have a heart attack, especially since we are talking about modifying an entire system used by many and inconvenience them only to rectify the doings of a few.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by AdequateRandomGaming

I'm not sure what the 10 minutes hold would accomplish, it seems too short of a time frame to really make a difference to be honest. There are definitely times in a 24 hour window where it's slow enough to not matter.
Silent auctions with the removal of BN, and highest bid hidden to all even the seller until card sells is probably the only way to get rid of that kind of behavior, but that's way too drastic a solution...it's 2021, the ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW crowd would have a heart attack, especially since we are talking about modifying an entire system used by many and inconvenience them only to rectify the doings of a few.

You very well may be right but I think it would make the extreme moves too much of a risk. Would you feel confident that no one out there would spot your auction of a Pedro for 2K during the ten minutes regardless of the time of day? Even if you succeed nine out of ten times, you are still losing badly. The team would still have to monitor for abuse but I think this would help reduce the load and let them concentrate on the remaining cases.

[Torgonius]

I'm trying to understand the problem you seek to solve.

If it's a matter of someone selling a card to someone else at a discount, and they aren't violating the TOS, then it's not a problem in need of solving.

If it's a matter of someone's feelings being hurt because they aren't part of that deal, too bad for them.

I should be able to sell any of my unlocked cards to whomever I choose, at any price over the minimum that I want, as long as I don't violate the TOS.

The team already monitors (I will take them at their word) for TOS violations. If they catch people, those people should be punished in accordance with the TOS.

If I offer you my dupe Chicken Wolf card for 50k, and you agree to that price, and we both get on the AH and I list it and you immediately grab it, no one has been hurt. Sure, I could have sold that card for a few Kpp more, but I chose not to.

There is an entire forum section devoted to people making deals.

[OMGPuppies]

Originally Posted by Torgonius

I'm trying to understand the problem you seek to solve.

If it's a matter of someone selling a card to someone else at a discount, and they aren't violating the TOS, then it's not a problem in need of solving.

If it's a matter of someone's feelings being hurt because they aren't part of that deal, too bad for them.

I should be able to sell any of my unlocked cards to whomever I choose, at any price over the minimum that I want, as long as I don't violate the TOS.

The team already monitors (I will take them at their word) for TOS violations. If they catch people, those people should be punished in accordance with the TOS.

If I offer you my dupe Chicken Wolf card for 50k, and you agree to that price, and we both get on the AH and I list it and you immediately grab it, no one has been hurt. Sure, I could have sold that card for a few Kpp more, but I chose not to.

There is an entire forum section devoted to people making deals.

Exactly what Torgonius said. There are numerous examples of times where I have posted on Discord what card I was looking for and have been contacted by players offering to sell me the card.

[professor ape]

The main problem being solved is people having multiple teams and unfairly concentrating their top talent onto one team. Yes, the crew monitors for obvious offenders but why not make this simple change to drastically reduce the issue in the first place?
I agree that creating the ten minute hold on its own would interrupt the trading that happens now. That is why I propose the creation of the Trade House. Instead of it being an underground market requiring careful coordination between the two players on Discord or other communication, why not bring trading to the masses as part of the game? I think it would add an element of fun for a larger audience. The trick there is to create flexible but fair boundaries to give some protection to less knowledgeable players and to minimize potential manipulation similar to what happens today on the Auction House.

[OMGPuppies]

Originally Posted by professor ape

The main problem being solved is people having multiple teams and unfairly concentrating their top talent onto one team. Yes, the crew monitors for obvious offenders but why not make this simple change to drastically reduce the issue in the first place?
I agree that creating the ten minute hold on its own would interrupt the trading that happens now. That is why I propose the creation of the Trade House. Instead of it being an underground market requiring careful coordination between the two players on Discord or other communication, why not bring trading to the masses as part of the game? I think it would add an element of fun for a larger audience. The trick there is to create flexible but fair boundaries to give some protection to less knowledgeable players and to minimize potential manipulation similar to what happens today on the Auction House.

I want something where I can set an amount I want to pay for a card and have the system automatically buy it for me when it comes on the AH.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by OMGPuppies

I want something where I can set an amount I want to pay for a card and have the system automatically buy it for me when it comes on the AH.

Interesting. If that were to be implemented then I guess it would give priority to the person who offered the most when the card hit the market. There would have to be a limit of how many cards you could flag. I’d probably say no more than three as it could add inflationary pressure on the market.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by professor ape

Interesting. If that were to be implemented then I guess it would give priority to the person who offered the most when the card hit the market. There would have to be a limit of how many cards you could flag. I’d probably say no more than three as it could add inflationary pressure on the market.

Inflationary pressure?? You are kidding me. I thought you were interested in cards selling for fair market value? If someone wants to pay 50K for a card, but doesn't want to scour the AH 25 times a day why can't they make the offer in advance for as many cards as they wanted? I would go so far as to suggest changing the AH to a buyer's market where people bid up cards at a price they are willing to pay. Every card is listed ALWAYS and starts at the quick sell value and potential buyer's bid the price up until a seller hits the SELL NOW button and it is sold and the price reverts back to quick sell value. In this case, the auction would be cancelled and started over after 24 hours from the final bid with no sellers (so as not to tie up a buyer's capital forever).

Anyway, as far as your idea goes, why should a card sitting on the AH for 5, 10 or even 24 hours that gets BIN'ed make the buyer wait 10 more minutes? Maybe, how about every card for sale the BIN doesn't show for 15 minutes and if during that time the bidding goes above the seller's BIN, then obviously that BIN is ignored and the new BIN is the highest priced reached after 15 minutes plus 10% and the auction continues until the time allotted by the seller expires. (That might teach newbie sellers to price their cards higher and lead to even more inflation and make even more money for the company.)