This is the Sort of Thing that Makes me NOT Want to Enable Leagues Other than MLB

PSUColonel · 08-10-2021, 12:09 PM

Meet Jake Thompson....by no means a star, but a servicable number 5 starter or maybe a long reliever. For whatever reason, he agreed to terms with an Independent League team, and was immediately purchased by the New York Yankees for 250K and assigned a minor league contract. Even if he is called up (which I assume he will be) his contract will be at the league minimum. Obviously he could had commanded much more by signing with a MLB club to start with.

I feel this is a major issue, and sort of a game breaker...at least if you want to enable independent leagues anyway. Any thoughts?

BBGiovanni · 08-10-2021, 12:44 PM

I won't try to argue about the underlying issue, that's not the only thing weird about independent leagues and I imagine reflected in other ways. I used to have the same problem (and I think it persists) with trades between major/international leagues, teams would fatten up on players from Japan and Korea.

Is your scout overrating this guy? I imagine the answer is no if the Yankees liked him too (but I've seen multiple scouts be wrong too). And of course you could turn off player purchases or raise the price a lot, but I imagine that's not what you had in mind when you added indy leagues.

PSUColonel · 08-10-2021, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBGiovanni

I won't try to argue about the underlying issue, that's not the only thing weird about independent leagues and I imagine reflected in other ways. I used to have the same problem (and I think it persists) with trades between major/international leagues, teams would fatten up on players from Japan and Korea.

Is your scout overrating this guy? I imagine the answer is no if the Yankees liked him too (but I've seen multiple scouts be wrong too). And of course you could turn off player purchases or raise the price a lot, but I imagine that's not what you had in mind when you added indy leagues.

Correct...I expect it to work as intended. Oh well, back to the drawing board...I think I am just going to run a straight MLB save. It's the best way to eliminate all of these issues. It won't be as dynamic or immersive of a world, but then again, with things like this happening it's likely a more "believable" universe.

OutS|der · 08-10-2021, 01:04 PM

Yep this is a major issue I’ve seen as well.

I went ahead and taken Cooperstown Negro Greats League edited them so they were ratings about 75 points from their potential and imported them into the MLB QuickStart. Watched a 64 overall rated Willie Wells, 20-80 100% accurate ratings, sign with an Indy league for like 11k and then immediately get signed by an MLB team for 250k where he’s now the 8th best prospect.

BBGiovanni · 08-10-2021, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Correct...I expect it to work as intended. Oh well, back to the drawing board...I think I am just going to run a straight MLB save. It's the best way to eliminate all of these issues. It won't be as dynamic or immersive of a world, but then again, with things like this happening it's likely a more "believable" universe.

Honestly, if you don't care too much about having all those players in your save it just makes for smaller files and faster play anyway.

koohead · 08-10-2021, 03:17 PM

that's interesting...I have 4 Indy leagues in my world so will have to pay closer attention to see if this is occurring on a regular basis. I've seen plenty of fringe ML players sit in FA well into the season so never really gave it much thought.

PSUColonel · 08-10-2021, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koohead

that's interesting...I have 4 Indy leagues in my world so will have to pay closer attention to see if this is occurring on a regular basis. I've seen plenty of fringe ML players sit in FA well into the season so never really gave it much thought.

a 45 starting pitcher really isn't fringy at all...he should have a job with an MLB team for more money than the league minimum.

One Post Wonder · 08-10-2021, 07:03 PM

There are always a number of fringe players who don't get picked up by major league teams in OOTP, probably because of roster issues and also because they refuse to sign MLC (MLC are probably counted as $0 in terms of salary whereas an independent league salary has an actual number).

IRL most of those guys would either call it quits or sign a minor league agreement and go to AAA. But since they don't do that in OOTP, they remain available for independent leagues to sign. And so independent leagues get access to a lot of players who are monsters and well above their accepted standard of play.

A couple of years ago I made a thread somewhere showing my Pecos league team which had gone something like 51-2. The best players on that team were in the major leagues the following year.

It'll never get fixed. The only time I use indy leagues these days is if I'm playing stats only and want to keep all those players generating stats somewhere, and even then I prefer to use fictional indy leagues for that.

TomVeal · 08-10-2021, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

There are always a number of fringe players who don't get picked up by major league teams in OOTP, probably because of roster issues and also because they refuse to sign MLC (MLC are probably counted as $0 in terms of salary whereas an independent league salary has an actual number).

IRL most of those guys would either call it quits or sign a minor league agreement and go to AAA. But since they don't do that in OOTP, they remain available for independent leagues to sign. And so independent leagues get access to a lot of players who are monsters and well above their accepted standard of play.

A couple of years ago I made a thread somewhere showing my Pecos league team which had gone something like 51-2. The best players on that team were in the major leagues the following year.

It'll never get fixed. The only time I use indy leagues these days is if I'm playing stats only and want to keep all those players generating stats somewhere, and even then I prefer to use fictional indy leagues for that.

If this quirk is due to undervaluation of minor league deals, it seems quite correctable by changing how players evaluate offers. IRL almost anybody will take a minor league deal with an MLB team over any Indy offer. The same should be true in OOTP, unless the independent league's Reputation is high relative to that of the league to which the team offering the minor league deal belongs.

PSUColonel · 08-10-2021, 11:20 PM

It’s the MLB setup…the highest Indy team is a 6. I was under the impression minor leagues within the MLB parent league ranked higher reputation wise…I ranked the triple A as 9 Double A as 8, high A 7, low A a 6 and so on

By default these reputations are zero…I wonder if actually ranking them has anything to do with it??

One Post Wonder · 08-10-2021, 11:36 PM

An independent team playing in a AA league might be viewed as an 8, or whatever the number is (IIRC the steps from level to level are not necessarily 1:1). So whatever that AA value is might get used when that particular team is signing a player.

But when a Major League franchise offers a player a MLC how do we know how that comes across? It's all the same in game terms. So is it rated as an invite to rookie league or AAA? I suspect it's a rookie league level contract since, unless this has changed in 22, those players appear on your rookie league roster when you sign them.

The MLC part of the game is probably exactly the same code OOTP was running 18 years ago before they had a lot of these realistic league arrangements. I'm not sure what the best way is to approach fixing that, since almost no-one is going to want to deal with 28 year old minor leaguers wanting to be in AAA instead of A, or something.

Perhaps everything but the top indy leagues need to be rated lower than whatever rookie is?

Baconi · 08-10-2021, 11:40 PM

If you play in the CPBL, you'll notice you can sign players with huge ratings (relative to Taiwan) that go on to win the Triple Crown in the league for a MILC. There's just something not right in how players are evaluated in foreign or independent leagues.

PSUColonel · 08-10-2021, 11:46 PM

I found this related thread from pre-release

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ree+Agent+sign

PSUColonel · 08-10-2021, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

An independent team playing in a AA league might be viewed as an 8, or whatever the number is (IIRC the steps from level to level are not necessarily 1:1). So whatever that AA value is might get used when that particular team is signing a player.

But when a Major League franchise offers a player a MLC how do we know how that comes across? It's all the same in game terms. So is it rated as an invite to rookie league or AAA? I suspect it's a rookie league level contract since, unless this has changed in 22, those players appear on your rookie league roster when you sign them.

The MLC part of the game is probably exactly the same code OOTP was running 18 years ago before they had a lot of these realistic league arrangements. I'm not sure what the best way is to approach fixing that, since almost no-one is going to want to deal with 28 year old minor leaguers wanting to be in AAA instead of A, or something.

Perhaps everything but the top indy leagues need to be rated lower than whatever rookie is?

this is from the manual:

One Post Wonder · 08-10-2021, 11:59 PM

How about that? It is much better than the system I thought was in place.

Either they've just changed that or I have been under the wrong impression for a looooong time.

08-10-2021, 12:09 PM	#1
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,139	This is the Sort of Thing that Makes me NOT Want to Enable Leagues Other than MLB Meet Jake Thompson....by no means a star, but a servicable number 5 starter or maybe a long reliever. For whatever reason, he agreed to terms with an Independent League team, and was immediately purchased by the New York Yankees for 250K and assigned a minor league contract. Even if he is called up (which I assume he will be) his contract will be at the league minimum. Obviously he could had commanded much more by signing with a MLB club to start with. I feel this is a major issue, and sort of a game breaker...at least if you want to enable independent leagues anyway. Any thoughts? Attached Images Last edited by PSUColonel; 08-10-2021 at 12:33 PM.

08-10-2021, 12:44 PM	#2
BBGiovanni All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Republic of California Posts: 1,910	I won't try to argue about the underlying issue, that's not the only thing weird about independent leagues and I imagine reflected in other ways. I used to have the same problem (and I think it persists) with trades between major/international leagues, teams would fatten up on players from Japan and Korea. Is your scout overrating this guy? I imagine the answer is no if the Yankees liked him too (but I've seen multiple scouts be wrong too). And of course you could turn off player purchases or raise the price a lot, but I imagine that's not what you had in mind when you added indy leagues. __________________ Let's Go (San Jose) Giants, Let's Go Mets! Current Project: WBAT/AABBA: Organized Base Ball And the "New Normal" World Baseball Aid Tournament 2023 trophy round underway!

08-10-2021, 03:17 PM	#6
koohead Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,231	that's interesting...I have 4 Indy leagues in my world so will have to pay closer attention to see if this is occurring on a regular basis. I've seen plenty of fringe ML players sit in FA well into the season so never really gave it much thought. __________________ GM - New Jersey Bears of the NPBL;

08-10-2021, 11:20 PM	#10
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,139	It’s the MLB setup…the highest Indy team is a 6. I was under the impression minor leagues within the MLB parent league ranked higher reputation wise…I ranked the triple A as 9 Double A as 8, high A 7, low A a 6 and so on By default these reputations are zero…I wonder if actually ranking them has anything to do with it?? Last edited by PSUColonel; 08-10-2021 at 11:21 PM.

08-10-2021, 01:04 PM	#4
OutS\|der Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: In A Van Down By The River Posts: 2,760 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Yep this is a major issue I’ve seen as well. I went ahead and taken Cooperstown Negro Greats League edited them so they were ratings about 75 points from their potential and imported them into the MLB QuickStart. Watched a 64 overall rated Willie Wells, 20-80 100% accurate ratings, sign with an Indy league for like 11k and then immediately get signed by an MLB team for 250k where he’s now the 8th best prospect.

08-10-2021, 07:03 PM	#8
One Post Wonder All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 538	There are always a number of fringe players who don't get picked up by major league teams in OOTP, probably because of roster issues and also because they refuse to sign MLC (MLC are probably counted as $0 in terms of salary whereas an independent league salary has an actual number). IRL most of those guys would either call it quits or sign a minor league agreement and go to AAA. But since they don't do that in OOTP, they remain available for independent leagues to sign. And so independent leagues get access to a lot of players who are monsters and well above their accepted standard of play. A couple of years ago I made a thread somewhere showing my Pecos league team which had gone something like 51-2. The best players on that team were in the major leagues the following year. It'll never get fixed. The only time I use indy leagues these days is if I'm playing stats only and want to keep all those players generating stats somewhere, and even then I prefer to use fictional indy leagues for that.

08-10-2021, 11:36 PM	#11
One Post Wonder All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 538	An independent team playing in a AA league might be viewed as an 8, or whatever the number is (IIRC the steps from level to level are not necessarily 1:1). So whatever that AA value is might get used when that particular team is signing a player. But when a Major League franchise offers a player a MLC how do we know how that comes across? It's all the same in game terms. So is it rated as an invite to rookie league or AAA? I suspect it's a rookie league level contract since, unless this has changed in 22, those players appear on your rookie league roster when you sign them. The MLC part of the game is probably exactly the same code OOTP was running 18 years ago before they had a lot of these realistic league arrangements. I'm not sure what the best way is to approach fixing that, since almost no-one is going to want to deal with 28 year old minor leaguers wanting to be in AAA instead of A, or something. Perhaps everything but the top indy leagues need to be rated lower than whatever rookie is?

08-10-2021, 11:40 PM	#12
Baconi Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 255	If you play in the CPBL, you'll notice you can sign players with huge ratings (relative to Taiwan) that go on to win the Triple Crown in the league for a MILC. There's just something not right in how players are evaluated in foreign or independent leagues.

08-10-2021, 11:46 PM	#13
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,139	I found this related thread from pre-release https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...ree+Agent+sign

08-10-2021, 11:59 PM	#15
One Post Wonder All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 538	How about that? It is much better than the system I thought was in place. Either they've just changed that or I have been under the wrong impression for a looooong time.