You can help to rename the MLB MVP award the Josh Gibson Memorial MVP Award

[Cool Papa Bell]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Yes, I get that you post the logo to be provocative (though I think being intentionally provocative is silly if you're actually trying to have a genuine conversation... but whatever floats your boat). I'm just offering up a suggestion to make it easier on you so you don't have to repost it all the time. In your signature, it's always there. But, whatever. Do what you want to do.

It's actually only been posted 2 or 3 times, but sure it's always there, whatever.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

It's actually only been posted 2 or 3 times, but sure it's always there, whatever.

If you put it in your signature then it will always be there (which is what I said). I did not say that it is in every post that you've posted. You are so defensive and high-strung in this thread that you're missing simple meanings of sentences. I was offering friendly advice. Thus the that accompanied that advice. But if you'd rather get defensive over friendly advice, have at it.

You started this thread out with very good intentions, but you've turned into a bit of a tool. If that's what you want to be, more power to you. Just know that reputations get built around here and people respond to those reputations accordingly.

Enjoy the rest of this thread, wherever it ends up going.

[Cool Papa Bell]

I've turned it into a tool? That's interesting, because without any of the comments about woke left and thoughts and prayers and veiled and outright attempts to demean by several guys, all this would have been was a PSA. When I've only posted something 2 or 3 times and that is construed as every time and so much that I should put it into my signature, can you not see why that would cause a defensive reaction? Or am I off base there? When someone posts nonsense without any thought to context or the underlying value of what something is about, like many of pushbacks posted in this thread, can you not see why that would cause a defensive reaction? A tool. A tool for what exactly, I'm curious. A tool to call out racism at this point? Yeah, I'm good with it being a tool for that. A tool for calling out ignorance? Yeah, I'm good with it being a tool for that.

[Cool Papa Bell]

Oh, and my apologies, you didn't say every post. Just every other post. That seems like a lot to be honest with you. Every other post. So much that I should put it into my signature. Seriously?

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

That's interesting, because without any of the comments about woke left and thoughts and prayers and veiled and outright attempts to demean by several guys, all this would have been was a PSA.

Maybe this thread has run its course then and should be locked since all it was was a simple PSA.

As a black man, this has really gone off the rails and become about more than baseball.....and the use of "racism" is starting to get out of hand, it seems more and more people use the term when they disagree with someone or run out of things to say in a discussion or argument.

[Cool Papa Bell]

Originally Posted by DJ_Jak_32

Maybe this thread has run its course then and should be locked since all it was was a simple PSA.

As a black man, this has really gone off the rails and become about more than baseball.....and the use of "racism" is starting to get out of hand, it seems more and more people use the term when they disagree with someone or run out of things to say in a discussion or argument.

That's an interesting take. It is about more than baseball, that is why there is an effort by many to shine the light on the Negro Leagues and it's history. If that's not about racism, I mean the fact that there had to be a segregated league actually called Negro Leagues and a whole history of what is called Black Baseball, then what is it about? I know people can hide behind whatever 'fact' or statistic or lack of they want, but it is what it is. Not understanding the why or even trying to and using whatever veil to hide behind to not recognize, it is what it is. Ignoring that fact is not helping.

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

That's an interesting take. It is about more than baseball, that is why there is an effort by many to shine the light on the Negro Leagues and it's history. If that's not about racism, I mean the fact that there had to be a segregated league actually called Negro Leagues and a whole history of what is called Black Baseball, then what is it about? I know people can hide behind whatever 'fact' or statistic or lack of they want, but it is what it is. Not understanding the why or even trying to and using whatever veil to hide behind to not recognize, it is what it is. Ignoring that fact is not helping.

Hey, I am very glad that they finally are giving the Negro Leagues their just due since the players that played back then were just as good if not better than guys playing the American and National Leagues. The problem with these records, is they should be kept separate since they were all in different leagues, regardless of perceived level. Fact is that they did not keep very good statistics back in the 30s and 40s....has nothing to do with "racism", has to do with how the leagues were organized and there were teams that would start a season and then disband and a new team would be started up in its place. My Grandfather told me plenty of stories of his time playing and watching baseball back in the 30s and 40s, his favorite was being struck out by Satchel Paige three times in the same game

I am just getting tired of people throwing out "racist" whenever they get into a disagreement.....and I have seen that term tossed around in this thread more than once. People can have an opinion on this that differs with you and not be racist.

[Cool Papa Bell]

Originally Posted by DJ_Jak_32

Hey, I am very glad that they finally are giving the Negro Leagues their just due since the players that played back then were just as good if not better than guys playing the American and National Leagues. The problem with these records, is they should be kept separate since they were all in different leagues, regardless of perceived level. Fact is that they did not keep very good statistics back in the 30s and 40s....has nothing to do with "racism", has to do with how the leagues were organized and there were teams that would start a season and then disband and a new team would be started up in its place. My Grandfather told me plenty of stories of his time playing and watching baseball back in the 30s and 40s, his favorite was being struck out by Satchel Paige three times in the same game

I am just getting tired of people throwing out "racist" whenever they get into a disagreement.....and I have seen that term tossed around in this thread more than once. People can have an opinion on this that differs with you and not be racist.

Good stuff man and that's fair. But I don't use the term lightly. For decades I've heard the same push back, the same belittling, the same justification or lack of justification. So have many of the authors, researchers, historians, former players in the Negro Leagues, they've all heard the same. It's the same tired, tried and true code that has been around for decades if not generations.

They did keep very good records in the 30's and 40's, in the 20's as well. I posted 1 of thousands of examples from Black newspapers that covered the Negro League extensively. It's what makes up the statistics from Seamheads now being used by Baseball Reference. No barnstorming games are being used, though countless times someone has tried to say they are. No games against the church team or some team of accountants, that's just false. The box scores are there. It takes time to verify and compile them. Many of those newspapers are gone, many forced out of business because they were a black newspaper. Every effort has been made to suppress much of it and it's been going on for generations. How long to wait to put something out? Until they are perfect? And that will take another month? Another year, years? You have to start somewhere and actually the first step is recognizing players who were denied the right to play because of the color of their skin, not their ability. Because when given the chance after 1947, the changed the game. They dominated the game. They didn't just spring out of the earth to do that, they learned it from Black Baseball. To say they are not a major league when they accomplished what they did when finally given the chance is ignoring every single thing that is telling you otherwise.

[Cool Papa Bell]

And I do have to add, racism yes, had everything to do with why teams and sometimes leagues, formed, then disbanded, then moved on. Everything to do with it. They were denied, stadiums to play in, given the worst times and dates when able to rent them, over charged, much like even today it happens with real estate, for when able to rent a stadium. Not allowed to travel by certain methods, over charged when they could, not given any coverage in newspapers if they didn't start their own, anything bad that happened was exaggerated as the norm, anything positive not covered at all. Every effort was made to make it hard to succeed, every effort made to not give credit when it was due. So yes, try to put yourself into their place and see how you would handle it. And yet they kept at it and changed the game when given the opportunity. If that's not a great story, what is?

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

Oh, and my apologies, you didn't say every post. Just every other post. That seems like a lot to be honest with you. Every other post. So much that I should put it into my signature. Seriously?

He really was just mentioning to you that you could put it in your signature rather than have to post it at all - seems it was just a friendly thing to mention in my view. Granted, you obviously know where the signature function is and would have done that if you wanted to but I don't see any malice intended toward you until he called you a tool (which isn't all that out of line in this exchange between him and you frankly).

I love the thread topic, love what you're doing but I think you are blurring things a bit here

[Cool Papa Bell]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

He really was just mentioning to you that you could put it in your signature rather than have to post it at all - seems it was just a friendly thing to mention in my view. Granted, you obviously know where the signature function is and would have done that if you wanted to but I don't see any malice intended toward you until he called you a tool (which isn't all that out of line in this exchange between him and you frankly).

I love the thread topic, love what you're doing but I think you are blurring things a bit here

Thanks man, I appreciate that! I will try to bite my tongue. And people often wonder why after a while, someone gets a little testy about everything. I don't blame them when sometimes it's hard to see the less veiled ones when there are so many overt, or gets harder to see more benign things at times.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

Thanks man, I appreciate that! I will try to bite my tongue. And people often wonder why after a while, someone gets a little testy about everything. I don't blame them when sometimes it's hard to see the less veiled ones when there are so many overt, or gets harder to see more benign things at times.

Frankly, I think you have been very patient in dealing with a few people here. This just isn't one of those :-)

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

And I do have to add, racism yes, had everything to do with why teams and sometimes leagues, formed, then disbanded, then moved on. Everything to do with it. They were denied, stadiums to play in, given the worst times and dates when able to rent them, over charged, much like even today it happens with real estate, for when able to rent a stadium. Not allowed to travel by certain methods, over charged when they could, not given any coverage in newspapers if they didn't start their own, anything bad that happened was exaggerated as the norm, anything positive not covered at all. Every effort was made to make it hard to succeed, every effort made to not give credit when it was due. So yes, try to put yourself into their place and see how you would handle it. And yet they kept at it and changed the game when given the opportunity. If that's not a great story, what is?

I have heard my Grandfather tell me stories about how it was back then, he played from 1935 - 1941 and then went off to fight in WWII and when he came back in 1945 he played a few more years in Mexico. I understand how it was back then, and hearing it first hand from someone who lived it, I think I have a pretty good understanding on what they dealt with. The stats were not as well kept as you say they were, in fact there were several times that score sheets went missing and they had to rely on the players to remember how they did in a game that happened a few days earlier. And teams would fold because players wanted to go elsewhere or were offered more money from another team and would leave mid season.

[rudel.dietrich]

I see no reason to lock this thread. For the most part, the discussion has been open and fruitful.

And it has long been a tactic on this forum that when certain people did not like a certain topic, they became toxic in that thread until it was locked or moved.

This is an important topic about sports.
I cannot think of a better part of the forum for this thread to be and I see no reason why it cannot remain open.

I for one have learned a lot from this thread and it has helped me shape my own ideas and feelings on the topic.

[dsvitak]

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[dsvitak]

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[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Please don't assume my level of bitterness when you're struggling to take up a neutral point of view yourself ("we have to work twice as hard to get half as far")....

Huh? I'm not "struggling to take up a neutral point of view."

And, by the way, we DO have to "work twice as hard to get half as far."

I don't expect you to understand that statement.

[Cool Papa Bell]

Originally Posted by DJ_Jak_32

I have heard my Grandfather tell me stories about how it was back then, he played from 1935 - 1941 and then went off to fight in WWII and when he came back in 1945 he played a few more years in Mexico. I understand how it was back then, and hearing it first hand from someone who lived it, I think I have a pretty good understanding on what they dealt with. The stats were not as well kept as you say they were, in fact there were several times that score sheets went missing and they had to rely on the players to remember how they did in a game that happened a few days earlier. And teams would fold because players wanted to go elsewhere or were offered more money from another team and would leave mid season.

That is awesome man! Who was your grandfather if you don't mind me asking? It was tough for sure as teams came through the Depression in the 1930s and many folded, many lost players to the war effort. Many players prior left to play in the Caribbean and Mexico because of better pay and conditions, can't blame them. Would love to hear more about how he did and who he played for. From 1921 to about 1932 there was a lot of extensive coverage by black newspapers and record keeping was good but the Depression was tough on a lot of things for sure.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

And I do have to add, racism yes, had everything to do with why teams and sometimes leagues, formed, then disbanded, then moved on. Everything to do with it. They were denied, stadiums to play in, given the worst times and dates when able to rent them, over charged, much like even today it happens with real estate, for when able to rent a stadium. Not allowed to travel by certain methods, over charged when they could, not given any coverage in newspapers if they didn't start their own, anything bad that happened was exaggerated as the norm, anything positive not covered at all. Every effort was made to make it hard to succeed, every effort made to not give credit when it was due. So yes, try to put yourself into their place and see how you would handle it. And yet they kept at it and changed the game when given the opportunity. If that's not a great story, what is?

Quite true. But unfortunately, a lot of our white brothers and sisters these days resent the telling of this great story because it makes them feel uncomfortable. It makes them feel defensive, even though they themselves had nothing at all to do with the racism that shapes the America we live in today.

It's this defensiveness that really troubles me, this sanitized version of history that certain people loudly and bitterly cling to. If you want to talk about what happened, tell the entire story. Stop attacking the other half of the story as "being politically correct."

I say this as a black man who has attended schools that were almost entirely white and worked somewhat successfully in an almost entirely white corporate world.

I'm astonished at the level of ignorance and denial among people I have been close friends with for more than 50 years. The friendship is rock solid until they mention some event or situation from the past and I tell them "It wasn't that way for me, or my parents, or my grandparents."

Then the iron gates come crashing down, and fear and resentment set in.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Westheim

...Rest assured I've read plenty about the history of baseball since finding to the game a decade ago, and about US history in general for many years before that...

Living it and reading about it for a mere ten years, from thousands of miles away, are very different things.

I wonder if you would feel differently if you had access to old black newspapers that ran articles about games, teams and leagues the "mainstream" press didn't regularly cover? Or access to people who had actually seen Negro League teams in action, against each other and against white barnstorming teams? Or would you somehow consider what they said to be less valid than "official" (i.e., white) sources?

I have found that this is a common problem among military historians when dealing with African affairs. They simply ignore any sources if the publications are African and not American or British. I can't begin to tell you how many times I have heard that information about a particular African country is "difficult to find."