Why do runners picked off 1B not count as caught stealing?

[Dave Stieb II]

This is a question I was going to ask the devs five years ago when I bought my first version of OOTP.
But - despite being an OOTP newbie, a rookie, a greenhorn - I quickly developed my own opinion about why it was a "nothing play" (not scored in any fashion) despite having a huge impact on the game's (pre-determined?) outcomes and decided to take a pass. The reasons seemed obvious to me then, as they do this day. Except now I'm more cynical and it is time to ask.
I am assuming the OOTP devs know a runner picked off 1B is scored as a caught stealing IRL.
So why isn't it scored as such in OOTP?
And if it's not going to be scored properly, why isn' it 'tracked' in some fashion - other than if the paying customer does it himself.
I just had two runners picked off first base in a 4-2 loss. Both with runners on first and third, less than 2 outs. Some might be shocked to hear that we didn't score either time.
In my current save with Tampa Bay, I have had 8 runners picked off 1B in 19 games. All but one when there were runners on first and third and less than 2 outs. More importantly, not ONCE did I have a play on (stolen base attempt, hit and run, run and hit). Most of the runners were players I wouldn't even consider having attempt a steal or even a run and hit, which is more effective. IRL, the pitchers would very seldomly, if ever, throw over against these guys.
And yet, if you look back through the boxscores, there is no indication that these 8 outs occurred.
I have a 'decent' 1B coach (in game running), and excellent 3B coach. I know when to run and against whom to try to run. For instance, I seldom attempt vs. Sanchez NY or Vazquez BOS even if the pitcher's hold rating is poor.
And I seldom if ever attempt a straight steal. I use run and hit when we are ahead in the count 2-1, at 2-2 and 3-2. That is the extent of it.
And yet a good running team like TB has 8 SB, 5 CS so far. OK. Fair enough. Some tough luck. NO PROBLEM.
However, IRL those stats should be 8 SB and 13 CS and I have a real problem with that. Not only is that absurd, but 8 of the CS came with no play on.
We are 11-8. Should be better but so be it. I don't really like Tampa Bay IRL anyway - as much as I respect them top to bottom - cause they always beat my Jays. Just biding time until I start a 'keeper' save.
But really this is crazy. And I can only assume that this is used as the great equalizer to reach pre-determined final game results - something I have always assumed and, I believe, quite rightly.
Otherwise, why isn't this event scored as it should be? Or in any fashion at all?

[Reed]

I believe you are wrong about a pick off being scored as a caught stealing.
If a runner is on first and the pitcher (or catcher) throws to first and the runner is tagged out, it is just considered a defensive play. If the runner attempts to run to 2nd when the pitcher (or catcher) throws to first and then 1st baseman throws toward 2nd with the runner getting thrown out, then it is a "caught stealing". If he is safe at 2nd, then he is credited with a stolen base.
Being picked off first is not an official MLB stat.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by Reed

I believe you are wrong about a pick off being scored as a caught stealing.
If a runner is on first and the pitcher (or catcher) throws to first and the runner is tagged out, it is just considered a defensive play. If the runner attempts to run to 2nd when the pitcher (or catcher) throws to first and then 1st baseman throws toward 2nd with the runner getting thrown out, then it is a "caught stealing". If he is safe at 2nd, then he is credited with a stolen base.

You are correct. The runner has to make some sort of action that shows an intent to steal. If he just has too big of a lead or is too slow getting back to the base, there's no caught stealing.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by Reed

I believe you are wrong about a pick off being scored as a caught stealing.
If a runner is on first and the pitcher (or catcher) throws to first and the runner is tagged out, it is just considered a defensive play. If the runner attempts to run to 2nd when the pitcher (or catcher) throws to first and then 1st baseman throws toward 2nd with the runner getting thrown out, then it is a "caught stealing". If he is safe at 2nd, then he is credited with a stolen base.
Being picked off first is not an official MLB stat.

Hmmm. I didn't know that so I learned something new. Thanks.
It doesn't change the fact that the number of pick offs in 19 games is absurdly high, especially with no 'play' on in even a single case and always when we are threatening to score.
So I stand by my viewpoint in general.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

. And I can only assume that this is used as the great equalizer to reach pre-determined final game results - something I have always assumed and, I believe, quite rightly.

Well, IMHO I would like to see the game allow us to "tell" our runners to "stick close to the base, don't get picked off!" IOW a "Short Lead" option or something similar like the defense can "guard the lines etc.". This could lessen the chance at the price of not being able to advance an extra base, perhaps? This instruction would still not make a pick off impossible because players do make mental mistakes, IE these things do happen.

Predetermined rusults? Just no. When I think of all of the "If\thens" that would have to be programed into the game, especially to trigger late in a game, or any time for that matter, and with a pickoff? Well I have to laugh.

So the game plays out with the "normal" engine until the AI realizes the human team is supposed to lose and it has to "search" for a solution. That solution, in this case? A pick off. Be much easier for Markus to hide his "devious plan" with a well timed double play, no? Or, why not just go with the easy answer and blow you out early with a barrage of home runs?

My 2 cents and needed to be said for any new users that might be reading this thread and think this has any chance of being true. Feel free to come back with all of your "proof"

I'll be content to not reply as I've said all I need to say

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Well, IMHO I would like to see the game allow us to "tell" our runners to "stick close to the base, don't get picked off!" IOW a "Short Lead" option or something similar like the defense can "guard the lines etc.". This could lessen the chance at the price of not being able to advance an extra base, perhaps? This instruction would still not make a pick off impossible because players do make mental mistakes, IE these things do happen.

Predetermined rusults? Just no. When I think of all of the "If\thens" that would have to be programed into the game, especially to trigger late in a game, or any time for that matter, and with a pickoff? Well I have to laugh.

So the game plays out with the "normal" engine until the AI realizes the human team is supposed to lose and it has to "search" for a solution. That solution, in this case? A pick off. Be much easier for Markus to hide his "devious plan" with a well timed double play, no? Or, why not just go with the easy answer and blow you out early with a barrage of home runs?

My 2 cents and needed to be said for any new users that might be reading this thread and think this has any chance of being true. Feel free to come back with all of your "proof"

I'll be content to not reply as I've said all I need to say

Fair enough. I know nothing about programming so I will take all of this at face value even though......
I still have a difficult time understanding how "random results based on ratings (under the hood)" could generate these sorts of results.
Eight runners picked off 1B in 19 games - all except one with runners on first and third and less than two outs; all in circumstances in which I had no play on. The runner had no reason to be "leaning" or "unknowingly revealing his intention" because there has not once been any intention to start the runner.
Ironically, when the pitcher has thrown over when I had called for a run and hit, not once has a runner been picked off.
I believe in outliers but this is a little too much for my tastes. No need to set historical records for ineptitude in the first 19 games of new standard game save.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

But really this is crazy. And I can only assume that this is used as the great equalizer to reach pre-determined final game results - something I have always assumed and, I believe, quite rightly.
Otherwise, why isn't this event scored as it should be? Or in any fashion at all?

When I score a game live I write PO to account for it. AFAIK that's the way it's always been done and I've scored games for 50+ years.

It's possible that OOTP may list PO as a note in the box score as they do for OF assists. I'll try to find one.

Baseball Reference counts pick offs (PO) and pick off caught stealing (POCS). See screenshot. They include that info in boxscores.

[Dave Stieb II]

Thanks for this.
No. OOTP includes no reference to pick offs in the boxscore. I had already checked earlier.
But it is in the game log (Duh! Never thought to check there until your post)
I know it is in the game log because (see attachment) I just checked my most recent game - Tampa's 22nd of the season.
And, for the ninth time in 22 games, we had a runner picked off first base with men on first and third and less than two outs, when there was no intention to run.
This time there were no outs and it went pick off, K, K.
Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Zip for you. Again.
This really is incredible. We're 14-8 and I don't really care how Tampa Bay does in the big picture.
But really? When does it stop?

[JerseyPirate]

I would check on a few of your settings to see if something is set too high. What are your stealing bases and base running sliders set at? And you said your running coach is "decent"? If you're settings are set toward frequent and aggressive, you need to turn those down and likely hire a better coach who is at least "great" at running.

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Thanks for this.
No. OOTP includes no reference to pick offs in the boxscore. I had already checked earlier.
But it is in the game log (Duh! Never thought to check there until your post)
I know it is in the game log because (see attachment) I just checked my most recent game - Tampa's 22nd of the season.
And, for the ninth time in 22 games, we had a runner picked off first base with men on first and third and less than two outs, when there was no intention to run.
This time there were no outs and it went pick off, K, K.
Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Zip for you. Again.
This really is incredible. We're 14-8 and I don't really care how Tampa Bay does in the big picture.
But really? When does it stop?

Attachment 788419

Yet another stat OOTPB does not track. This clearly should be tracked at player (runner, defense) and team level. 22 versions and no plans to implement

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by JerseyPirate

I would check on a few of your settings to see if something is set too high. What are your stealing bases and base running sliders set at? And you said your running coach is "decent"? If you're settings are set toward frequent and aggressive, you need to turn those down and likely hire a better coach who is at least "great" at running.

Thanks.
1. My sliders are fine. One notch above the medium. Which is probably too low given how many really good base runners/stealers Tampa Bay has.
2. I play all the games out pitch by pitch so I am the one managing the situations. As mentioned, not once has there been any intention to run when these pick offs occurred.
3. I have hired a really excellent coaching staff. My first base coach is outstanding at teaching various elements of the game and that is why I hired him.
With all due respect to OOTP devs, if a 'decent' first base coach is somehow responsible for this ineptitude of historical proportions, then it is they who need to re-visit their settings and the impact of coaches on the outcomes. Especially the outcomes of 'there is no play on here' situations.

[OutS|der]

MLB Rules in caught stealing



Caught Stealing (CS)

Definition

A caught stealing occurs when a runner attempts to steal but is tagged out before reaching second base, third base or home plate. This typically happens after a pitch, when a catcher throws the ball to the fielder at the base before the runner reaches it. But it can also happen before a pitch, typically when a pitcher throws the ball to first base for a pickoff attempt but the batter has already left for second.

Many different factors go into a caught stealing. Namely: a pitcher's quick release to home plate, a catcher's quick transfer and throw, a good tag by the fielder receiving the ball and a poor jump -- or slow first step -- by the baserunner.

If a runner is thrown out trying to advance on a wild pitch or a passed ball, this does not count as a caught stealing. Similarly, a runner who is picked off while diving back to a base has not been "caught stealing" because he never attempted to steal in the first place. If a batter steals a base safely but is tagged when he comes off the base before fully gaining his balance, it still counts as a caught stealing, because he was never established on the base.

Baseball's caught-stealing leaders are typically some of the fastest players in the game, as such players attempt to steal the most bases.

When a catcher gets an assist on a caught stealing, he is awarded a catcher caught stealing (CCS). He is also awarded a CCS if the recipient drops his throw for an error and the official scorer judges that the runner would have been out had the ball been caught. However, when a runner is thrown out trying to advance on a wild pitch or a passed ball, a catcher caught stealing is not awarded.

[Dave Stieb II]

Again, thanks for clarifying the 'caught stealing' aspect.
None of the 9 pick offs we have had against us in 22 games would qualify as caught stealings since there was 'no play on' or intention to run.
That has been established.

But the discussion is still about pick offs, how they are/aren't tracked in OOTP, what is a reasonable number in situations where there is no intention to run, etc.

I remember a Jays game in the 80's where the Baltimore reliever Martinez (a lefty, not Dennis, can't remember his first name) picked off three runners in ONE inning. Now that was an outlier, too. But the Jays were down a run, ran A LOT in those days and they were itching to steal a base, traiing by a run.
And I definitely don't recall them having another 6 runners picked off in the next 20-odd games.

Correction: The Jays were up a run, 4-3, in the top of the tenth and looking to add more. Orioles' Lenn Sakata, a utility IF, had been forced into C the tenth because of an injury, then a PH substitution in the bottom of the ninth when Orioles trailed 3-2. That is why the Jays were eager to run off TIPPY Martinez, who picked off Barry Bonnell, Dave Collins and Willie Upshaw in succession. Baltimore won the game 7-4 in the bottom of the 10th on a 3-run Sakata HR. The losing pitcher was Joey MacLaughlin. Shudder. That Blue Jays BP was wretched for a few years back then.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

Yet another stat OOTPB does not track. This clearly should be tracked at player (runner, defense) and team level. 22 versions and no plans to implement

And you know this how?

Every year we are all free to make suggestions on what OOTP needs. Some are added quickly while others go on the list of things to do. I would think some suggestions get lost in the shuffle. The developers are human and subject to error. Also don't discount that the developers also have ideas of their own. They are not mindless and limited to what we, the users, offer as suggestions I would bet there is a user out there somewhere that thinks L-R splits are in OOTP only because they suggested it years ago God knows Markus could have never come up with that on his own

The one thing we do know for a fact is you have no idea what is or is not on their complete list of things to do.

[oomm]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Again, thanks for clarifying the 'caught stealing' aspect.
None of the 9 pick offs we have had against us in 22 games would qualify as caught stealings since there was 'no play on' or intention to run.
That has been established.

But the discussion is still about pick offs, how they are/aren't tracked in OOTP, what is a reasonable number in situations where there is no intention to run, etc.

I remember a Jays game in the 80's where the Baltimore reliever Martinez (a lefty, not Dennis, can't remember his first name) picked off three runners in ONE inning. Now that was an outlier, too. But the Jays were down a run, ran A LOT in those days and they were itching to steal a base, traiing by a run.
And I definitely don't recall them having another 6 runners picked off in the next 20-odd games.

Correction: The Jays were up a run, 4-3, in the top of the tenth and looking to add more. Orioles' Lenn Sakata, a utility IF, had been forced into C the tenth because of an injury, then a PH substitution in the bottom of the ninth when Orioles trailed 3-2. That is why the Jays were eager to run off TIPPY Martinez, who picked off Barry Bonnell, Dave Collins and Willie Upshaw in succession. Baltimore won the game 7-4 in the bottom of the 10th on a 3-run Sakata HR. The losing pitcher was Joey MacLaughlin. Shudder. That Blue Jays BP was wretched for a few years back then.

Wretched yes, yet somehow thus belonging doubly so down at the ol' Ex, the cradle of baseball in English-speaking Canada (which, let's face it, is Canada). When the best was yet to come. And alas, has since come and gone, for good. Before wretched cell phones and jumbo trons and apps and sound-effects and batting helmets with little facial protection just in case and throwing a bit inside or at someone's head gets you ejected and alternate uniforms that are perfect and have nothing to do with baseball and a million blogs and yet no Don Chevrier. Give me 45 degree weather with winds gusting out to right where the homeruns just kept rolling and bouncing off into the stuff of legend, and those wretched aluminum benches any day over what exists now.... And the gulls! Hotdogs at the Ex, watching the strange Americans none of the other teams wanted who would have been in the minors, called the 'Jays', lose yet another, back to back on a Saturday afternoon at Exhibition Place and yet were lauded and applauded anyway. "Lets Play Ball...!



Oh! Kay!



Blue! Jays!



Let's!



Play!



...Ball!"

[brotherblues]

On a semi related note, a catcher gets credit cor "throwing out" a runner on home steal attempts.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by oomm

Wretched yes, yet somehow thus belonging doubly so down at the ol' Ex, the cradle of baseball in English-speaking Canada (which, let's face it, is Canada). When the best was yet to come. And alas, has since come and gone, for good. Before wretched cell phones and jumbo trons and apps and sound-effects and batting helmets with little facial protection just in case and throwing a bit inside or at someone's head gets you ejected and alternate uniforms that are perfect and have nothing to do with baseball and a million blogs and yet no Don Chevrier. Give me 45 degree weather with winds gusting out to right where the homeruns just kept rolling and bouncing off into the stuff of legend, and those wretched aluminum benches any day over what exists now.... And the gulls! Hotdogs at the Ex, watching the strange Americans none of the other teams wanted who would have been in the minors, called the 'Jays', lose yet another, back to back on a Saturday afternoon at Exhibition Place and yet were lauded and applauded anyway. "Lets Play Ball...!



Oh! Kay!



Blue! Jays!



Let's!



Play!



...Ball!"

LOL good one. Don't forget the huge crown on the football field at the Ex where certain hard hit balls would pick up speed on the carpet and you'd wonder why the OF would end up chasing a ball that was initially in front of them.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

MLB Rules in caught stealing



Caught Stealing (CS)

Definition

A caught stealing occurs when a runner attempts to steal but is tagged out before reaching second base, third base or home plate. This typically happens after a pitch, when a catcher throws the ball to the fielder at the base before the runner reaches it. But it can also happen before a pitch, typically when a pitcher throws the ball to first base for a pickoff attempt but the batter has already left for second.

Many different factors go into a caught stealing. Namely: a pitcher's quick release to home plate, a catcher's quick transfer and throw, a good tag by the fielder receiving the ball and a poor jump -- or slow first step -- by the baserunner.

If a runner is thrown out trying to advance on a wild pitch or a passed ball, this does not count as a caught stealing. Similarly, a runner who is picked off while diving back to a base has not been "caught stealing" because he never attempted to steal in the first place. If a batter steals a base safely but is tagged when he comes off the base before fully gaining his balance, it still counts as a caught stealing, because he was never established on the base.

Baseball's caught-stealing leaders are typically some of the fastest players in the game, as such players attempt to steal the most bases.

When a catcher gets an assist on a caught stealing, he is awarded a catcher caught stealing (CCS). He is also awarded a CCS if the recipient drops his throw for an error and the official scorer judges that the runner would have been out had the ball been caught. However, when a runner is thrown out trying to advance on a wild pitch or a passed ball, a catcher caught stealing is not awarded.

BR capture most if not all of these variants in their season tables.

Edit; actual fielding stats by position would be in other tables.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...-batting.shtml

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by oomm

Wretched yes, yet somehow thus belonging doubly so down at the ol' Ex, the cradle of baseball in English-speaking Canada (which, let's face it, is Canada). When the best was yet to come. And alas, has since come and gone, for good. Before wretched cell phones and jumbo trons and apps and sound-effects and batting helmets with little facial protection just in case and throwing a bit inside or at someone's head gets you ejected and alternate uniforms that are perfect and have nothing to do with baseball and a million blogs and yet no Don Chevrier. Give me 45 degree weather with winds gusting out to right where the homeruns just kept rolling and bouncing off into the stuff of legend, and those wretched aluminum benches any day over what exists now.... And the gulls! Hotdogs at the Ex, watching the strange Americans none of the other teams wanted who would have been in the minors, called the 'Jays', lose yet another, back to back on a Saturday afternoon at Exhibition Place and yet were lauded and applauded anyway. "Lets Play Ball...!



Oh! Kay!



Blue! Jays!



Let's!



Play!



...Ball!"

Ah, thanks for the great memories. Nothing today could match that place.

Started sharing season tickets in '83 through the strike in '94 when I stopped following baseball for a few years.

But before and even after investing in a share of tickets, I enjoyed nothing more than buying the $4 bleacher seats (I think they were $2 through Dominion or Shopper's or some chain). Had more fun out there than anywhere.

(This particular game occurred in Baltimore and by '83 Jays were a legit contender....save for the bullpen.)

But, two more fond memories to go along with Joey MacLaughlin.....Jerry Garvin and Roy Lee Jackson. Well, fond to some I guess. Their parents, maybe? Certainly not Dave Stieb.

[Mancandy]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Well, IMHO I would like to see the game allow us to "tell" our runners to "stick close to the base, don't get picked off!" IOW a "Short Lead" option or something similar like the defense can "guard the lines etc.". This could lessen the chance at the price of not being able to advance an extra base, perhaps? This instruction would still not make a pick off impossible because players do make mental mistakes, IE these things do happen.

Predetermined rusults? Just no. When I think of all of the "If\thens" that would have to be programed into the game, especially to trigger late in a game, or any time for that matter, and with a pickoff? Well I have to laugh.

So the game plays out with the "normal" engine until the AI realizes the human team is supposed to lose and it has to "search" for a solution. That solution, in this case? A pick off. Be much easier for Markus to hide his "devious plan" with a well timed double play, no? Or, why not just go with the easy answer and blow you out early with a barrage of home runs?

My 2 cents and needed to be said for any new users that might be reading this thread and think this has any chance of being true. Feel free to come back with all of your "proof"

I'll be content to not reply as I've said all I need to say

Lol. I have no idea if the game has predetermined results or not, but the idea that it would be impossible or even remotely difficult to do...lol. That’s like saying it’d be impossible to make a random number generator that only produces even numbers. It’s so little work required that it’s essentially as easy to do it as it is to not do it. Again, I have no idea if the game has predetermined outcomes - I kind of doubt it, just on the basis that there’s no reason for it to - but there’s no credence to the claim that it would be remotely difficult to do.

Anyway, going back to the OP, this is why I gave up playing out games pitch by pitch years ago. It’s simply impossible to get realistic results.