UPDATE: October 27th - Page 2

erickdamac · 10-29-2003, 01:31 PM

Jim out of all those guys roy could Defeat them easy, How? Speed, speed And yeah speed, those guys were tough but roy jones just to fast and throw combinations so quickly that it knocks his oppenets out, probaly not his power just all those punches at once, to me he is the #1 p4p and A all time great. He did fight at a weak time in Lhw but i can't think of any past time lhw that could be him.

erickdamac · 10-29-2003, 01:35 PM

Roy can pick how he wants to beat you. If your Stronger then him he can box you, if your not stronger then him he can slug you If he wan to he can be boxer/slugger he is the must overal fighter i've seen in a while. For some reason i think he is gonna lose to Traver because buddy Kept telling people he know how to beat roy and he was waiting for this oppitunity to fight him and i think buddy really do have a sulotion to beatin roy. I just can't wait.

Is maywheather talking crazy he said after this fight he want to fight Gatti and 147 then fight osca by june next year. I guess hbo is really gettin on him huh lol.

KING GIZMO · 10-29-2003, 01:37 PM

I agree roy jones would probably beat all those guys due to his immense speed and skills. I believe he would also have the upper hand on Calzaghe, but I would love to see the fight. Calzaghe also has immense speed, and he also knocks people out by throwing so many punches at once. I don't think Jones has ever fought someone with as much speed as Calzaghe. It sure would be interesting.

erickdamac · 10-29-2003, 01:39 PM

Who fault is it the fight didn't happend? Not roy's its Calzaghe.

KING GIZMO · 10-29-2003, 01:59 PM

Could a Jones-Calzaghe fight ever have happened? The problem is Roy is signed with HBO and Joe’s fights are shown on the rival channel Showtime in the US. Less of a problem would have been the weight. Calzaghe is pretty tight at 12-stone(168 pounds) and would not mind moving up a few pounds to lhw, and I think Jones could certainly have got under lhw, if both camps agreed.

I would not blame Calzaghe because he was always adamant that the win that could make him one of the best pound for pound fighters would be a win over Jones. Calzaghe was always up for it, and Jones is definitely not scared of Calzaghe. However, there was no real interest by promoters and venues in Las Vegas, as Calzaghe wasn't and still isn't much of a big name there.

Calzaghe desperately needs some competition in the Super Middle weight division, he may need to go up to lhw, but I still can't see the likes of DM or Gonzalez beating Calzaghe.

Jim Trunzo · 10-29-2003, 03:23 PM

I tend to agree in many ways with (and the crowd gasps!) King Gizmo. The tremendous problems presented by the HBO vs. Showtime rivalry will be difficult to overcome when you consider that Jones (no matter how good) has never been the money-making draw that Tyson and De le Hoya have been; and Calzaghe is, unfortunately, unknown to the casual fan.

Add to that, Jones' overcautious approach (pay me a zillion dollars or I ain't fightin' anyone too dangerous) and a Calzaghe fight doesn't look promising.

My problem with Jones is that he could have exercised his power and fought some people that he simply didn't fight. I understand that he was leery of fighting Michalzcewski in Germany and getting robbed and jobbed like he did in the Olympics. However, I have no doubt that, even two years ago, he would have knocked out Michalzcewski. Now, Julio Gonzalez, a decent fighter but no Roy Jones wins - ironically - a close decision in Michalzcewski's back yard.

Admittedly, Jones seems to be changing his approach just a bit. He's going to fight Tarver, we may still see him in again against Hopkins.

However, my theory is still this: Jones was profoundly affected by what happened to Gerald McClelland. I believe that Jones fears no man; but I believe that Jones is terrified by the prospect of injury. Now, of course, anyone in his right mind has to have a bit of apprehension about getting hurt if he's in a sport that thrives on it. I maintain that Jones' anxiety goes well beyond that.

If you get the opportunity, read an awesome book entitled "The Dark Trade" - outstanding inside stuff on Toney and Jones, among others.

Boxingnut · 10-29-2003, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by erickdamac
Jim out of all those guys roy could Defeat them easy, How? Speed, speed And yeah speed, those guys were tough but roy jones just to fast and throw combinations so quickly that it knocks his oppenets out, probaly not his power just all those punches at once, to me he is the #1 p4p and A all time great. He did fight at a weak time in Lhw but i can't think of any past time lhw that could be him.

If Del Valle could knock Roy down, Bob Foster would have nailed him to the canvas. And I'm a fan of Roy's.

PittPanther · 10-29-2003, 08:30 PM

Jim---

You have always been a big fan of Harold Johnson. Personally, I think Jones could adapt to anyone of the fighters that most would mention in the top 10 LHW's of all time.

On whole, it's got to be tough to rate LHW any way. Most in our top 10 cut their teeth or made their reputations in other divisions.
Charles, Fitz, Greb, Tunney, Spinks, and so forth are probably better remembered by the public for their fights at different weight classes.

Even Jones' bigger fights were at different weight classes. If I recall, he fought Hopkins for the Middy, and Toney for Super-Middy belts.

Although a giant fan of most of the old timers, I too feel that Roy could hold his own with anyone in the division. Speed kills.

Charles is still the best of the LHW's, but Roy has got to be included with the likes of Moore, Foster, Tunney, Greb, Johnson, etc.

Cap · 10-29-2003, 09:27 PM

Unfortunately, we'll never really know how good Jones is, because he picks and chooses his opponents too carefully to give an accurate assessment of his true skills. Let's face it, the light-heavyweight division has never been chock full of talent and there were few really talented middleweights around to challenge Jones early on. He fought a cruiserweight who had two left feet and then easily out-boxed John Ruiz. Did anyone not see that happening? A KO would have surprised me, but he used his speed and superior boxing abilities to make Ruiz look like the journeyman he is. Ruiz made Scott LeDoux look good.

Cap

wildhawke11 · 10-29-2003, 10:50 PM

Its not hard to look good, when the competition is not there.
Today there are so many other ways for young men to make a good living in sports without getting their heads punched in. Maybe most of the young men who might also have been good or great fighters are sensible enough to find easier and better ways of earning dollars.

Years ago, the competition was fierce, very competitive, even becoming a considered contender was hard enough. and you also in most cases did not have the luxury of picking which champion to take on. No, i am not living in the past, just stating facts,

Do you Gentlemen not think that some of the other fighters from the past would not also have walked through Jones opposition.
I recall reading on some other boxing boards, the praise poured on Roy after his win over mediocre Ruiz.
Now if it had been ALI, FRAZIER, LOUIS, MARCIANO, LISTON, FOREMAN i might have joined the worshipers and paid homage.

I myself think Cap and Jim had it about right, he has beat all, but the real test is when things are not going your way. Yes its not hard to dish it out, but when it comes to taking it that's a whole different ball game.

Of course we get the Jones is so good, he makes them look bad, i think its more of a case of most of his opponents are bad.
Not all will see it my way, but its a case of each to his own.

Anyway nice to see you all again Gentleman.
Danny

erickdamac · 10-30-2003, 12:35 PM

Wild I know you and respect your opion, That bein said now i must correct you one one thing people fail to realize 2 things abou roy one is that he dominated the middle wait division first and the second thing is, For someone to jump from lhw to hw and dominate a top 5 contender have to be great, How can people sit here and say he is not good because he beated ruiz? I mean come on Its like your making him so great that he should have jump from lhw and fought lewis? He beated a top 5 contender, yet people quick to say ruiz is nothin bu t no one qwas saying that on ruiz defeated holyfield, Websites was saying roy is not going to eneter the ring if he does he is getting knocked out then when he won they said roy is fighting ruiz cuz he is a bum. Web sites praised dm for fighting gonzas but when roy ate him up they said Gonzalas was a bum and why did roy fight him. Just real con fusing.

And about era MARCIano fought in one of the weakest era's in boxing! Man you cant deny it. He fought all the old boxers from the 30's And you know his great fights was with old men walcot 38, luis well in his 30' moore 42, Im not sayin marciano intionally fought older people it was a weak era. Marciano have no chane vs. roy, Sorry he just dont he has to many downs he too slow reflexes not that good and get cut to easy. Roy is just to fast, All im saying if your going o say your gonna praise marciano and marciano fought in a very WEAK ERA in boxing and only fought 6 years how can you not praise roy after he beated some of the best names in boxing, bernard hopkins JAMES Toney,joohn ruiz montell griffin come on now.

sabotai · 10-30-2003, 03:46 PM

"How can people sit here and say he is not good because he beated ruiz? I mean come on Its like your making him so great that he should have jump from lhw and fought lewis? He beated a top 5 contender, yet people quick to say ruiz is nothin bu t no one qwas saying that on ruiz defeated holyfield,"

Ruiz is not a great fighter. He beat an old, slow Holyfield. In fact, against a slow, old Holyfield, he was 1-1-1. Ruiz made Holyfield look like a challenger to the world title, while Toney made Holyfield look like the old, slow, WELL past his prime fighter that he is. If Roy wants to make any kind of statement in the HW division, he has to fight someone else. Ruiz is just not good enough. (I don't care what he was ranked. Of course he'd be rank in the top 5 because he held a title. But it doesn't mean he blonged in the top 5). If Roy gets in the ring and makes someone like Tyson, Byrd, Tua or Rahman look on the same level as Ruiz, then I'll consider him as good of a HW fighter as you make him out to be. But until he does, I won't buy it, if not only because you can't really make such a decision on just one fight.

And Marciano would have destoyed Roy.

dempsonny · 10-30-2003, 05:54 PM

Eric,
The weakest HW era in boxing has been the last 23 years. Walcott was better when he was older. Think of him as Barry Bonds who was better at 38 than at 29. Marciano would have ripped through any of the last 20 years of HW's. Walcott and Charles would also have beaten everyone. This is the only era of HW that you have seen which is why you think they're so great. Eric, the boxers of today don't have the rounds of ring experience to contend with the other era's. There are exceptions but very few in the HW's. If you took a fighter out of the older era and put him into this era with modern training methods they would look just as physically impressive as the fighters of today but with more skill due to rounds in the ring alone.

Gus

crusadecat · 10-30-2003, 06:53 PM

thanks for the update. As always looking forward to the product you feel comfortable releasing when your feel comfortable.

swampdragon · 10-30-2003, 07:15 PM

This discussion reminds me of the ones about whether Ruth, Gehrig, etc. were better than the Bonds, Sosa generation. In general, I think you have to believe that modern training, diets, steroids, etc. make the modern day fighter much bigger and stronger than the old guys. They also seem much quicker, at least compared to the surviving telecasts of the 50s fighters. On the other hand, the older guys did have a lot more time in the ring. Some of them fought literally hundreds of professional bouts, and most of them weren't four rounds. So the argument boils down to strength and speed vs. skill and experience. Most of us sentimentally feel that skill and experience should prevail. I feel the same way, but honesty compels me to say that I really have to side with Erick. You can't say that the old fighters would be better if they had modern training, since that's not the universe we're living in and you can't possibly make a reasonable guess. Boxing at its heart is a game of strength and speed.
As to whether Marciano would have destroyed Jones, he would have to catch him first. If he did catch him, he'd destroy him. I'm not so sure he'd catch Jones.

wildhawke11 · 10-30-2003, 09:35 PM

Rocky Marciano A Real Champion
Rocky Marciano a Champion both In and Out of the Ring

If winning fights is*ALL* that matters then there is only one Heavyweight in the picture
Has to be Rocky Marciano. 49 fights -- 49 wins -- 43 by KO

Of course we All know stats on paper don't give the full story.
Ali most feel holds that Crown, and arguable was the Best

I would love to have seen a fight between Marciano and Holmes,
both at there peak. On paper it looks like a Holmes victory. Most would say "Yes Larry is to big and has a great jab" !!!!!!
Till i whispered in the Rocks ear "Hey Champ this is the guy who said you were not fit enough to carry his jock strap"

That's all Marciano would need to put Holmes through more pain then any fighter has had to take to earn a win. Not sure then who my money would be on. Ohhhhh hell put my $$$$$ on the guy who never gave up, and walked through fire and brimstone to land his own blows

In a lot of ways he was a bit like the fighter in the Rocky Films, if you were going to beat him you had to be prepared to die to win. Once in that square jungle with the Rock. It was pain, pain and more pain to follow.

Many fighters who took on the Rock worked out he was clumsy, slow and had there game plan all worked out.

"I will keep him away with my strong jab, or tie him up when close. or make him miss with my boxing skills"
The reality was, once the fight started, they found out that he was not so slow, had power in EVERY blow he threw, and it was a total different ball game trying to fight the Rock then watching this squat figure from the safety of a ringside seat and dreaming they could take him.

No matter how much you hit him, or were ahead on points against this guy, He never stopped coming at you. He was losing against Joe Walcott going into the 13th round but once again the Rock did it as the song goes
---- "I Did it My Way"----

You know why people loved the Rock, it was because they could associate themselves with him, he did not look like our stereo type picture of a fighter, more like the average Joe in the street, short of build, craggy features, he was one of us. if you know what i mean.
He had not the speed of Clay, the accuracy of Joe Louis, or the film star looks of say a young Billy Conn, but he had the biggest Heart in the World it is true, i have heard guys say he would rather die then give up. That was our Rocky.

Unlike some he never disrespected any other fighter he took on, he just did the job in his own way, and went out with a true unbeaten 49 record win to show for his efforts.
What more can a man do to then be the Best of his era.

Maybe its time now to start judging the smaller old time Heavyweights such as Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney etc etc on a Pound for Pound basis but then still rank them say for example at number 4 in The All time Great Heavy List
rather then say would Jack Dempsey have beaten say Lewis. or the next 290 lb fighter that is sure to come one day. In the year 2075 they might well be saying how could little Ali have beaten our present 350lb World Champ.

They might knock you Rocky and criticise you in any way they like, but one thing no one can ever take away from you. Is that great unbeaten record you took to your grave.

I salute a real Champion *Rocky Marciano a real Man of the People*

Just something i knocked up in the Boxing Section as a tribute to Rocky a few months back thought some might enjoy while we wait for our game.
Danny

Xury · 10-31-2003, 12:08 AM

You all should know that I find your posts very entertaining and highly informative. I am a boxing fan, but my knowledge is somewhat limited, and I am a rookie on this message site - you guys really know your stuff and I learn more each time I read.

Jim and Tom - keep up the good work. Again, your ground-breaking game will be enjoyed by not just the boxing experts, but regular fans like me, and I can't wait (actually, I can wait - i'm just excited!)

Thanks,
Collin

Night2000 · 10-31-2003, 12:20 AM

Excellent post on the "Rock" Wildhawke11 well said!

KING GIZMO · 10-31-2003, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildhawke11
Rocky Marciano A Real Champion
Rocky Marciano a Champion both In and Out of the Ring

If winning fights is*ALL* that matters then there is only one Heavyweight in the picture
Has to be Rocky Marciano. 49 fights -- 49 wins -- 43 by KO

Of course we All know stats on paper don't give the full story.
Ali most feel holds that Crown, and arguable was the Best

I would love to have seen a fight between Marciano and Holmes,
both at there peak. On paper it looks like a Holmes victory. Most would say "Yes Larry is to big and has a great jab" !!!!!!
Till i whispered in the Rocks ear "Hey Champ this is the guy who said you were not fit enough to carry his jock strap"

That's all Marciano would need to put Holmes through more pain then any fighter has had to take to earn a win. Not sure then who my money would be on. Ohhhhh hell put my $$$$$ on the guy who never gave up, and walked through fire and brimstone to land his own blows

In a lot of ways he was a bit like the fighter in the Rocky Films, if you were going to beat him you had to be prepared to die to win. Once in that square jungle with the Rock. It was pain, pain and more pain to follow.

Many fighters who took on the Rock worked out he was clumsy, slow and had there game plan all worked out.

"I will keep him away with my strong jab, or tie him up when close. or make him miss with my boxing skills"
The reality was, once the fight started, they found out that he was not so slow, had power in EVERY blow he threw, and it was a total different ball game trying to fight the Rock then watching this squat figure from the safety of a ringside seat and dreaming they could take him.

No matter how much you hit him, or were ahead on points against this guy, He never stopped coming at you. He was losing against Joe Walcott going into the 13th round but once again the Rock did it as the song goes
---- "I Did it My Way"----

You know why people loved the Rock, it was because they could associate themselves with him, he did not look like our stereo type picture of a fighter, more like the average Joe in the street, short of build, craggy features, he was one of us. if you know what i mean.
He had not the speed of Clay, the accuracy of Joe Louis, or the film star looks of say a young Billy Conn, but he had the biggest Heart in the World it is true, i have heard guys say he would rather die then give up. That was our Rocky.

Unlike some he never disrespected any other fighter he took on, he just did the job in his own way, and went out with a true unbeaten 49 record win to show for his efforts.
What more can a man do to then be the Best of his era.

Maybe its time now to start judging the smaller old time Heavyweights such as Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney etc etc on a Pound for Pound basis but then still rank them say for example at number 4 in The All time Great Heavy List
rather then say would Jack Dempsey have beaten say Lewis. or the next 290 lb fighter that is sure to come one day. In the year 2075 they might well be saying how could little Ali have beaten our present 350lb World Champ.

They might knock you Rocky and criticise you in any way they like, but one thing no one can ever take away from you. Is that great unbeaten record you took to your grave.

I salute a real Champion *Rocky Marciano a real Man of the People*

Just something i knocked up in the Boxing Section as a tribute to Rocky a few months back thought some might enjoy while we wait for our game.
Danny

Nice concise post Wildhawke11. Thanks for being so brief. I totally agree with you, they can never knock his awesome record.

erickdamac · 10-31-2003, 02:57 AM

Wild Man For once stop bein a fan and be a expert!

Your eyes is closed, your like a woman in a abusive relationship your not seing the wholething. Mike tyson is my favorite boxr all times but yet I wont lie for him I have to realize he lost all his big fights. You have to open your eyes, Here are some har knock facts thats good about rocky, he always trained hard never took anyone lightly and Always won. Here are the hard knocks facts thats ad, All of the fighters he fought (Big fights) Was at least 8 years older than him. All the big fight's he had he was trailing and laucked up to get a knock out. I have a theory Rocky trained so hard he could go 30 rounds but these older guys (he exception of luis) Got cought up when there legs gone. Forget my theor forget what i say, Forget about the fighter bein old forget all that.

You said Roy fought doing a weak era, So did marciano Point Blank! You cant deny that. And you guys just put roy down for some strange reason do you realize he beated the top 3 guys in 3 diffrent weight division? Beranard middle weight Toney cruizer heavy mnow aand ruiz. If you gonna give rocky respect for beating old men THEN Damnit give roy respect for what he do. He is the best p4p he can beat rocky Come on you cant make him to be som bbum.

10-29-2003, 01:59 PM	#25
KING GIZMO Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 46	Could a Jones-Calzaghe fight ever have happened? The problem is Roy is signed with HBO and Joe’s fights are shown on the rival channel Showtime in the US. Less of a problem would have been the weight. Calzaghe is pretty tight at 12-stone(168 pounds) and would not mind moving up a few pounds to lhw, and I think Jones could certainly have got under lhw, if both camps agreed. I would not blame Calzaghe because he was always adamant that the win that could make him one of the best pound for pound fighters would be a win over Jones. Calzaghe was always up for it, and Jones is definitely not scared of Calzaghe. However, there was no real interest by promoters and venues in Las Vegas, as Calzaghe wasn't and still isn't much of a big name there. Calzaghe desperately needs some competition in the Super Middle weight division, he may need to go up to lhw, but I still can't see the likes of DM or Gonzalez beating Calzaghe. Last edited by KING GIZMO; 10-29-2003 at 02:08 PM.

10-29-2003, 08:30 PM	#28
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	Jim--- You have always been a big fan of Harold Johnson. Personally, I think Jones could adapt to anyone of the fighters that most would mention in the top 10 LHW's of all time. On whole, it's got to be tough to rate LHW any way. Most in our top 10 cut their teeth or made their reputations in other divisions. Charles, Fitz, Greb, Tunney, Spinks, and so forth are probably better remembered by the public for their fights at different weight classes. Even Jones' bigger fights were at different weight classes. If I recall, he fought Hopkins for the Middy, and Toney for Super-Middy belts. Although a giant fan of most of the old timers, I too feel that Roy could hold his own with anyone in the division. Speed kills. Charles is still the best of the LHW's, but Roy has got to be included with the likes of Moore, Foster, Tunney, Greb, Johnson, etc. __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

10-29-2003, 09:27 PM	#29
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,983	Unfortunately, we'll never really know how good Jones is, because he picks and chooses his opponents too carefully to give an accurate assessment of his true skills. Let's face it, the light-heavyweight division has never been chock full of talent and there were few really talented middleweights around to challenge Jones early on. He fought a cruiserweight who had two left feet and then easily out-boxed John Ruiz. Did anyone not see that happening? A KO would have surprised me, but he used his speed and superior boxing abilities to make Ruiz look like the journeyman he is. Ruiz made Scott LeDoux look good. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

10-29-2003, 10:50 PM	#30
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Its not hard to look good, when the competition is not there. Today there are so many other ways for young men to make a good living in sports without getting their heads punched in. Maybe most of the young men who might also have been good or great fighters are sensible enough to find easier and better ways of earning dollars. Years ago, the competition was fierce, very competitive, even becoming a considered contender was hard enough. and you also in most cases did not have the luxury of picking which champion to take on. No, i am not living in the past, just stating facts, Do you Gentlemen not think that some of the other fighters from the past would not also have walked through Jones opposition. I recall reading on some other boxing boards, the praise poured on Roy after his win over mediocre Ruiz. Now if it had been ALI, FRAZIER, LOUIS, MARCIANO, LISTON, FOREMAN i might have joined the worshipers and paid homage. I myself think Cap and Jim had it about right, he has beat all, but the real test is when things are not going your way. Yes its not hard to dish it out, but when it comes to taking it that's a whole different ball game. Of course we get the Jones is so good, he makes them look bad, i think its more of a case of most of his opponents are bad. Not all will see it my way, but its a case of each to his own. Anyway nice to see you all again Gentleman. Danny __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010 Last edited by wildhawke11; 10-30-2003 at 11:30 PM.

10-30-2003, 05:54 PM	#33
dempsonny Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: long island, n.y. Posts: 325	Eric, The weakest HW era in boxing has been the last 23 years. Walcott was better when he was older. Think of him as Barry Bonds who was better at 38 than at 29. Marciano would have ripped through any of the last 20 years of HW's. Walcott and Charles would also have beaten everyone. This is the only era of HW that you have seen which is why you think they're so great. Eric, the boxers of today don't have the rounds of ring experience to contend with the other era's. There are exceptions but very few in the HW's. If you took a fighter out of the older era and put him into this era with modern training methods they would look just as physically impressive as the fighters of today but with more skill due to rounds in the ring alone. Gus __________________ A house without a dog is not a home.

10-29-2003, 01:31 PM	#21
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Jim out of all those guys roy could Defeat them easy, How? Speed, speed And yeah speed, those guys were tough but roy jones just to fast and throw combinations so quickly that it knocks his oppenets out, probaly not his power just all those punches at once, to me he is the #1 p4p and A all time great. He did fight at a weak time in Lhw but i can't think of any past time lhw that could be him.

10-29-2003, 01:35 PM	#22
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Roy can pick how he wants to beat you. If your Stronger then him he can box you, if your not stronger then him he can slug you If he wan to he can be boxer/slugger he is the must overal fighter i've seen in a while. For some reason i think he is gonna lose to Traver because buddy Kept telling people he know how to beat roy and he was waiting for this oppitunity to fight him and i think buddy really do have a sulotion to beatin roy. I just can't wait. Is maywheather talking crazy he said after this fight he want to fight Gatti and 147 then fight osca by june next year. I guess hbo is really gettin on him huh lol.

10-29-2003, 01:37 PM	#23
KING GIZMO Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 46	I agree roy jones would probably beat all those guys due to his immense speed and skills. I believe he would also have the upper hand on Calzaghe, but I would love to see the fight. Calzaghe also has immense speed, and he also knocks people out by throwing so many punches at once. I don't think Jones has ever fought someone with as much speed as Calzaghe. It sure would be interesting.

10-29-2003, 01:39 PM	#24
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Who fault is it the fight didn't happend? Not roy's its Calzaghe.

10-29-2003, 03:23 PM	#26
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 739	I tend to agree in many ways with (and the crowd gasps!) King Gizmo. The tremendous problems presented by the HBO vs. Showtime rivalry will be difficult to overcome when you consider that Jones (no matter how good) has never been the money-making draw that Tyson and De le Hoya have been; and Calzaghe is, unfortunately, unknown to the casual fan. Add to that, Jones' overcautious approach (pay me a zillion dollars or I ain't fightin' anyone too dangerous) and a Calzaghe fight doesn't look promising. My problem with Jones is that he could have exercised his power and fought some people that he simply didn't fight. I understand that he was leery of fighting Michalzcewski in Germany and getting robbed and jobbed like he did in the Olympics. However, I have no doubt that, even two years ago, he would have knocked out Michalzcewski. Now, Julio Gonzalez, a decent fighter but no Roy Jones wins - ironically - a close decision in Michalzcewski's back yard. Admittedly, Jones seems to be changing his approach just a bit. He's going to fight Tarver, we may still see him in again against Hopkins. However, my theory is still this: Jones was profoundly affected by what happened to Gerald McClelland. I believe that Jones fears no man; but I believe that Jones is terrified by the prospect of injury. Now, of course, anyone in his right mind has to have a bit of apprehension about getting hurt if he's in a sport that thrives on it. I maintain that Jones' anxiety goes well beyond that. If you get the opportunity, read an awesome book entitled "The Dark Trade" - outstanding inside stuff on Toney and Jones, among others.

10-30-2003, 12:35 PM	#31
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Wild I know you and respect your opion, That bein said now i must correct you one one thing people fail to realize 2 things abou roy one is that he dominated the middle wait division first and the second thing is, For someone to jump from lhw to hw and dominate a top 5 contender have to be great, How can people sit here and say he is not good because he beated ruiz? I mean come on Its like your making him so great that he should have jump from lhw and fought lewis? He beated a top 5 contender, yet people quick to say ruiz is nothin bu t no one qwas saying that on ruiz defeated holyfield, Websites was saying roy is not going to eneter the ring if he does he is getting knocked out then when he won they said roy is fighting ruiz cuz he is a bum. Web sites praised dm for fighting gonzas but when roy ate him up they said Gonzalas was a bum and why did roy fight him. Just real con fusing. And about era MARCIano fought in one of the weakest era's in boxing! Man you cant deny it. He fought all the old boxers from the 30's And you know his great fights was with old men walcot 38, luis well in his 30' moore 42, Im not sayin marciano intionally fought older people it was a weak era. Marciano have no chane vs. roy, Sorry he just dont he has to many downs he too slow reflexes not that good and get cut to easy. Roy is just to fast, All im saying if your going o say your gonna praise marciano and marciano fought in a very WEAK ERA in boxing and only fought 6 years how can you not praise roy after he beated some of the best names in boxing, bernard hopkins JAMES Toney,joohn ruiz montell griffin come on now.

10-30-2003, 03:46 PM	#32
sabotai All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Jersey Posts: 841	"How can people sit here and say he is not good because he beated ruiz? I mean come on Its like your making him so great that he should have jump from lhw and fought lewis? He beated a top 5 contender, yet people quick to say ruiz is nothin bu t no one qwas saying that on ruiz defeated holyfield," Ruiz is not a great fighter. He beat an old, slow Holyfield. In fact, against a slow, old Holyfield, he was 1-1-1. Ruiz made Holyfield look like a challenger to the world title, while Toney made Holyfield look like the old, slow, WELL past his prime fighter that he is. If Roy wants to make any kind of statement in the HW division, he has to fight someone else. Ruiz is just not good enough. (I don't care what he was ranked. Of course he'd be rank in the top 5 because he held a title. But it doesn't mean he blonged in the top 5). If Roy gets in the ring and makes someone like Tyson, Byrd, Tua or Rahman look on the same level as Ruiz, then I'll consider him as good of a HW fighter as you make him out to be. But until he does, I won't buy it, if not only because you can't really make such a decision on just one fight. And Marciano would have destoyed Roy.

10-30-2003, 06:53 PM	#34
crusadecat All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 827	thanks for the update. As always looking forward to the product you feel comfortable releasing when your feel comfortable.

10-30-2003, 07:15 PM	#35
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	This discussion reminds me of the ones about whether Ruth, Gehrig, etc. were better than the Bonds, Sosa generation. In general, I think you have to believe that modern training, diets, steroids, etc. make the modern day fighter much bigger and stronger than the old guys. They also seem much quicker, at least compared to the surviving telecasts of the 50s fighters. On the other hand, the older guys did have a lot more time in the ring. Some of them fought literally hundreds of professional bouts, and most of them weren't four rounds. So the argument boils down to strength and speed vs. skill and experience. Most of us sentimentally feel that skill and experience should prevail. I feel the same way, but honesty compels me to say that I really have to side with Erick. You can't say that the old fighters would be better if they had modern training, since that's not the universe we're living in and you can't possibly make a reasonable guess. Boxing at its heart is a game of strength and speed. As to whether Marciano would have destroyed Jones, he would have to catch him first. If he did catch him, he'd destroy him. I'm not so sure he'd catch Jones. Last edited by swampdragon; 10-30-2003 at 07:23 PM.

10-30-2003, 09:35 PM	#36
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	HAVE YOU FORGOT ERIC :-) Rocky Marciano A Real Champion Rocky Marciano a Champion both In and Out of the Ring If winning fights isALL that matters then there is only one Heavyweight in the picture Has to be Rocky Marciano. 49 fights -- 49 wins -- 43 by KO Of course we All know stats on paper don't give the full story. Ali most feel holds that Crown, and arguable was the Best I would love to have seen a fight between Marciano and Holmes, both at there peak. On paper it looks like a Holmes victory. Most would say "Yes Larry is to big and has a great jab" !!!!!! Till i whispered in the Rocks ear "Hey Champ this is the guy who said you were not fit enough to carry his jock strap" That's all Marciano would need to put Holmes through more pain then any fighter has had to take to earn a win. Not sure then who my money would be on. Ohhhhh hell put my $$$$$ on the guy who never gave up, and walked through fire and brimstone to land his own blows In a lot of ways he was a bit like the fighter in the Rocky Films, if you were going to beat him you had to be prepared to die to win. Once in that square jungle with the Rock. It was pain, pain and more pain to follow. Many fighters who took on the Rock worked out he was clumsy, slow and had there game plan all worked out. "I will keep him away with my strong jab, or tie him up when close. or make him miss with my boxing skills" The reality was, once the fight started, they found out that he was not so slow, had power in EVERY blow he threw, and it was a total different ball game trying to fight the Rock then watching this squat figure from the safety of a ringside seat and dreaming they could take him. No matter how much you hit him, or were ahead on points against this guy, He never stopped coming at you. He was losing against Joe Walcott going into the 13th round but once again the Rock did it as the song goes ---- "I Did it My Way"---- You know why people loved the Rock, it was because they could associate themselves with him, he did not look like our stereo type picture of a fighter, more like the average Joe in the street, short of build, craggy features, he was one of us. if you know what i mean. He had not the speed of Clay, the accuracy of Joe Louis, or the film star looks of say a young Billy Conn, but he had the biggest Heart in the World it is true, i have heard guys say he would rather die then give up. That was our Rocky. Unlike some he never disrespected any other fighter he took on, he just did the job in his own way, and went out with a true unbeaten 49 record win to show for his efforts. What more can a man do to then be the Best of his era. Maybe its time now to start judging the smaller old time Heavyweights such as Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney etc etc on a Pound for Pound basis but then still rank them say for example at number 4 in The All time Great Heavy List rather then say would Jack Dempsey have beaten say Lewis. or the next 290 lb fighter that is sure to come one day. In the year 2075 they might well be saying how could little Ali have beaten our present 350lb World Champ. They might knock you Rocky and criticise you in any way they like, but one thing no one can ever take away from you. Is that great unbeaten record you took to your grave. I salute a real Champion Rocky Marciano a real Man of the People Just something i knocked up in the Boxing Section as a tribute to Rocky a few months back thought some might enjoy while we wait for our game. Danny

10-31-2003, 12:08 AM	#37
Xury Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: A native Texan living in Georgia. Posts: 18	You all should know that I find your posts very entertaining and highly informative. I am a boxing fan, but my knowledge is somewhat limited, and I am a rookie on this message site - you guys really know your stuff and I learn more each time I read. Jim and Tom - keep up the good work. Again, your ground-breaking game will be enjoyed by not just the boxing experts, but regular fans like me, and I can't wait (actually, I can wait - i'm just excited!) Thanks, Collin __________________ God cheers for the Dallas Cowboys.

10-31-2003, 12:20 AM	#38
Night2000 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 716	Excellent post on the "Rock" Wildhawke11 well said! __________________ http://night2000.blogspot.com/ This post has the Al Bundy and Homer Simpson stamp of approval!

10-31-2003, 02:57 AM	#40
erickdamac All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,592	Wild Man For once stop bein a fan and be a expert! Your eyes is closed, your like a woman in a abusive relationship your not seing the wholething. Mike tyson is my favorite boxr all times but yet I wont lie for him I have to realize he lost all his big fights. You have to open your eyes, Here are some har knock facts thats good about rocky, he always trained hard never took anyone lightly and Always won. Here are the hard knocks facts thats ad, All of the fighters he fought (Big fights) Was at least 8 years older than him. All the big fight's he had he was trailing and laucked up to get a knock out. I have a theory Rocky trained so hard he could go 30 rounds but these older guys (he exception of luis) Got cought up when there legs gone. Forget my theor forget what i say, Forget about the fighter bein old forget all that. You said Roy fought doing a weak era, So did marciano Point Blank! You cant deny that. And you guys just put roy down for some strange reason do you realize he beated the top 3 guys in 3 diffrent weight division? Beranard middle weight Toney cruizer heavy mnow aand ruiz. If you gonna give rocky respect for beating old men THEN Damnit give roy respect for what he do. He is the best p4p he can beat rocky Come on you cant make him to be som bbum.