You can help to rename the MLB MVP award the Josh Gibson Memorial MVP Award

[Cool Papa Bell]

Roy Campanella won the MVP award in '51, '53 and '55. He was a great player. He came out of the Negro Leagues, played as well in Mexico and Venezuela. Only 31 players have won the MVP award more than once. He would have been no higher than third maybe as far back as fifth on the list of all-time best Negro League Catchers. Someone please explain how he won those 3 MVP Awards, coming out of an allegedly second rate, not major and only major because people are woke now league. Were they woke in the 50's? Hardly. Yet former Negro League players won 9 MVP awards and 6 Rookie of the Year Awards in a 10 year period including a player who was the first ever to win MVP & Cy Young in the same season and who also for 60 years was the only pitcher to win MVP, Cy Young and Rookie of the Year in his career. Those are facts. Yet we are supposed to believe they just spang out of the earth to change the game. No one can explain that without resorting to nonsense like woke this and bully pulpit that.

[Cool Papa Bell]

Wait, they are doing all of that. That is exactly what the Josh Gibson Foundation has been doing for 25 years. This isn't about slapping a name onto anything, my goodness.

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I couldn't care less about whose name is on the MVP award. Name it for Gibson. I wouldn't care. Name it for Willie Mays. I wouldn't care. Name it for Frank Robinson. That seems like the best choice. But then again, I wouldn't care.

What bothers me about this whole issue is that it smacks of tokenism - the notion that, by doing this one thing, we somehow erase the legacy of racism in major league baseball. It was the same with MLB's decision to recognize the Negro Leagues as majors. It was as if Rob Manfred was saying: "sorry about that whole color-line business. I'll wave my magic wand and make you all major leaguers. There, we're good now, right?" It's a sop thrown to minority communities mainly to assuage the guilt of white liberals while simultaneously doing nothing to address the underlying problems that caused things like the color line in the first place.

You want to honor the memory of Josh Gibson? Start the Josh Gibson Inner-City Youth Baseball Initiative. Invest in equipment, ballparks, instructors, mentors, and leagues in urban areas that are crying for that kind of opportunity for their young residents. That seems to me like a much better way to promote Gibson's legacy than simply slapping his name on some award and then smugly saying "there, now we're even."

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

Roy Campanella won the MVP award in '51, '53 and '55. He was a great player. He came out of the Negro Leagues, played as well in Mexico and Venezuela. Only 31 players have won the MVP award more than once. He would have been no higher than third maybe as far back as fifth on the list of all-time best Negro League Catchers. Someone please explain how he won those 3 MVP Awards, coming out of an allegedly second rate, not major and only major because people are woke now league. Were they woke in the 50's? Hardly. Yet former Negro League players won 9 MVP awards and 6 Rookie of the Year Awards in a 10 year period including a player who was the first ever to win MVP & Cy Young in the same season and who also for 60 years was the only pitcher to win MVP, Cy Young and Rookie of the Year in his career. Those are facts. Yet we are supposed to believe they just spang out of the earth to change the game. No one can explain that without resorting to nonsense like woke this and bully pulpit that.

It's not a major league if it lacks the basic standards of organization of a major league. For example - teams are handed down a schedule and are to follow it strictly, unless it rains. Then they have to play two tomorrow. At the end of the year, they have all played X number of games (except for the odd rainout that's not made up because it would not matter). That was the standard of organization in the 1920s-1940s. Anything less is not acceptable.

Oh, and games against non-professional teams don't count for standings or stats. You know, the basics. Or maybe you don't know the basics.

Honest answer please: if the Yankees today went on a California college tour in November and Judge and Stanton each hit 15 dingers against what's probably single-A level pitching, and MLB decreed, yup, those go onto your official career totals - would that feel right to you?

Yes? How about a 17-year-old high school junior wearing braces in the middle of Alabama?

[Cool Papa Bell]

It makes no sense what you are saying. No statistics against minor league or college or whatever level are being included. Why do you waste that much time saying the same thing over and over and over. I mean, seriously, your comments are stupid and make no sense. Everyone with half a brain knows what is being included, though apparently you do not.

I get it, you're not even from the United States, you formed opinions based on what you read and who knows what your read or where it came from. This was a different time period. Do you not understand that? In the early days of professional baseball, all teams did the same thing. Barnstorming was a way of life, you made money, that was what kept your team afloat. The Negro Leagues did not have the same established protocols because they were starting from scratch, trying to get to the level of the white major leagues. They had to resort to that because they were not allowed to play, not because they weren't good enough. The statistics and impact they made once they were allowed are fact. They were not allowed to play because that would mean white players would be out of the league. Zero sum game. Fact.

Originally Posted by Westheim

It's not a major league if it lacks the basic standards of organization of a major league. For example - teams are handed down a schedule and are to follow it strictly, unless it rains. Then they have to play two tomorrow. That was the standard of organization in the 1920s-1940s. Anything less is not acceptable.

Oh, and games against non-professional teams don't count for standings or stats. You know, the basics. Or maybe you don't know the basics.

Honest answer please: if the Yankees today went on a California college tour in November and Judge and Stanton each hit 15 dingers against what's probably single-A level pitching, and MLB decreed, yup, those go onto your official career totals - would that feel right to you?

Yes? How about a 17-year-old high school junior wearing braces in the middle of Alabama?

[Westheim]

So, were you alive in the 1920s then? And witnessed the birth of the Negro Leagues firsthand?

No?

In what capacity are you preaching then? Did you read about it? Who knows what you read...!

If you have any time in between being ridiculous, please consult the standings of any American League or National League season and point out to me which of the W's and L's in there were from barnstorming.

I'm not saying the Negro League players weren't good - some are in the Hall of Fame, and for good reason. But the Negro Leagues were very much not, and certainly not major league standard, and touting somebody to have the highest career batting average or the most career home runs based on *the Negro Leagues* stats is wrong, misinformed, and at worst disingenuous.

By the way, I'm an accountant. I like things to add up. There. 1937 Homestead Grays. Picked them at random. They are credited (I'm notably not saying "they played") with 64 games against Negro National League teams. They are also credited with 531 appearances by players in the batting register. That is 8.3 player appearances per game. It is also impossible. So what is missing? Games for sure. Are there at-bats missing? Who the hell knows? Are all the stats credited here against NNL opposition, or are some from barnstorming? Who can tell? It's a mess, it's definitely not correct, and it is baseless to assign Josh Gibson or any other player any home run total, wins total, stolen base total, batting average, or ERA, or any other stat you can think of, based on THIS MESS.

By extension - no, he's not the greatest player ever, probably not even close. He's a weird choice for a hill to die on for revisionists, who could get (proven!) amazing black players in Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Roy Campanella, etc., as campaign figureheads, who actually have a resounding volume of work in a MAJOR LEAGUE.

This campaign makes no sense. You make no sense. We already knew that nothing bubbling forth from Rob Numbfred's mouth makes any sense. This thread makes no sense.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

Wait, they are doing all of that. That is exactly what the Josh Gibson Foundation has been doing for 25 years.

Good for them. But they're not major league baseball.

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

This isn't about slapping a name onto anything, my goodness.

Except for the MVP award.

[Cool Papa Bell]

Honestly, the only one being beyond ridiculous here is you. What kind of analogy is that? Not alive in 1920 discounts everything right? But decades of historians, hall of fame players and managers, major league baseball itself and all of the known compilers of MLB statistics are all saying the same thing. You don't agree with them. That's fine, everyone has an opinion.

No W's and L's in the statistics and standings that are being looked at include any barnstorming games whatsoever. The statistics are still being reviewed, I'm on a panel working with Baseball Reference to figure this out. You don't like that context, fine that's your opinion. Here is what they say at Baseball Reference, who I think has a bit higher knowledge of things than an accountant from Germany has about baseball in the United States. Nothing is going to change your mind and I don't really care to. Please note their comments about systemic racism and why the Negro Leagues were in a position that they were. They do not in any way align with what you are saying.

The Negro Leagues Are Major Leagues
We have dramatically expanded our coverage of the Negro Leagues and historical Black major league players. Major Negro Leagues (from 1920-1948) are now listed with the National League and American League as major leagues.

We are not bestowing a new status on these players or their accomplishments. The Negro Leagues have always been major leagues. We are changing our site's presentation to properly recognize this fact.

In keeping with our mission and values at Sports Reference, when it comes to this endeavor, our intent is to celebrate the players, teams, and leagues we are adding to our site, as well as to educate our users about the history of these leagues. The Negro Leagues are not less than the National and American Leagues. They are different, and we recognize that our work must acknowledge those differences.

Spurred on by thoughtful commentary on this matter last summer, we have been working diligently to incorporate this long overdue and critical part of our sport's history into our site. In December 2020, Commissioner of Baseball Robert D. Manfred, Jr. similarly announced a new MLB policy, recognizing the Negro Leagues as major leagues. We implemented changes in a manner consistent with the major league level these leagues played at, acting with the utmost respect for the players, their families, the researchers and the fans of these leagues.

Although our work is heavily stats driven, we recognize that the history and the legend and lore of many of these players exist beyond the numbers. To celebrate that legacy, we have commissioned numerous articles from Negro League experts and others to explain this part of baseball history. We also strongly urge you to visit The Negro League Baseball Museum in-person or via their website.

The Negro Leagues data is not complete and thus, you'll notice that the Negro League seasons in our database feature fewer games than the National and American Leagues. A main reason for the missing data is that, unfortunately, while the quality of play in the Negro Leagues was on a major league level, the wages, travel, playing conditions, and record-keeping were not, primarily due to systemic racism. Additionally, Negro League teams played an extensive amount of barnstorming games. These contests were not part of their league schedule and are therefore not included in this database.

It's also important to remember that the history of the Negro Leagues does not start in 1920 or end in 1948 and even from 1920-1948 our presentation is shockingly incomplete. There were hundreds of teams and thousands of players that make up a more complete and richer history of Black Baseball than we are able to present here, and from 1920-1948 there were many star players and teams that found it more feasible to play only a barnstorming schedule rather than participate in leagues. These independent teams were often the equal of teams we are including as major league teams on the site now. Our complete register of baseball history contains a significant record of Independent and non-major Negro Leagues. For example, we have a page for the 1917 Chicago American Giants.

Rest assured that research is still ongoing, and we'll continue to publish updates as more information becomes available. As you return to the site in the future, you should expect significant changes and improvements in our coverage of the Negro Leagues as more research is done and more statistics are compiled.

[Cool Papa Bell]

Who do you think helps support organizations like the Josh Gibson Foundaton?

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Good for them. But they're not major league baseball.


Except for the MVP award.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

Who do you think helps support organizations like the Josh Gibson Foundaton?

What is this, a game of twenty questions? I've never heard of the Josh Gibson Foundation before, so feel free to provide any information that you have that you think is relevant. But the fact that I've never heard of the Josh Gibson Foundation is, I think, an indication that the foundation may not be playing the prominent role that maybe it should be or that you think it is. The fact that black participation in youth baseball has been declining for decades shows that there's a lot of work to do in this area, and if that's the JGF's focus, then I'd want to know why it doesn't seem to be making an impact. And if the JGF is getting most of its money from MLB, I'd want to know why that investment doesn't seem to be paying any dividends. And if you think that the best way to address this problem is to name an award after Josh Gibson, then I'd want to know what you're smoking and who your supplier is.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

Honestly, the only one being beyond ridiculous here is you. What kind of analogy is that? Not alive in 1920 discounts everything right?

But I can't be born on the "wrong" side of the Atlantic and still have a valid position about baseball in the 30s in the U.S., huh? That's some smart logic right there.

German's my first language - I must *definitely* know less about baseball than a guy that cuts up baseball cards for his activism.

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

Here is what they say at Baseball Reference, who I think has a bit higher knowledge of things than an accountant from Germany has about baseball in the United States. Nothing is going to change your mind and I don't really care to. Please note their comments about systemic racism and why the Negro Leagues were in a position that they were.

See, this is where they give their game away.

Spurred on by thoughtful commentary on this matter last summer, we have been working diligently to incorporate this long overdue and critical part of our sport's history into our site.

That reads like "Everybody's thrown black people a bone, so we have to throw one, too". They are even kind enough to acknowledge some of my points, then do an "ah, whatever!". Poor form.

By the way, for an expert historian you're really bad at citations...

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

What is this, a game of twenty questions? I've never heard of the Josh Gibson Foundation before, so feel free to provide any information that you have that you think is relevant. But the fact that I've never heard of the Josh Gibson Foundation is, I think, an indication that the foundation may not be playing the prominent role that maybe it should be or that you think it is.

Maybe we should join his echo chamber.

[Cool Papa Bell]

I'm confused. No one said the Josh Gibson Foundation gets most of it's money from MLB. Most sounds like a lot. What I said was contributes. Like they do to many organizations around the country to support youth baseball and other initiatives. Also no one said prominent role about the foundation in anything. I've never heard of you, no one knows what you do either. Do some research, stop being so intellectually lazy, it doesn't take a genius to goggle what they do. And no one said naming the MVP Award after Josh Gibson will solve any problems. That was never even in the conversation. They are trying to do something, many people are trying to do something and raise awareness, you do nothing. I guess beyond intellectually lazy you are also maliciously deceptive.

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

What is this, a game of twenty questions? I've never heard of the Josh Gibson Foundation before, so feel free to provide any information that you have that you think is relevant. But the fact that I've never heard of the Josh Gibson Foundation is, I think, an indication that the foundation may not be playing the prominent role that maybe it should be or that you think it is. The fact that black participation in youth baseball has been declining for decades shows that there's a lot of work to do in this area, and if that's the JGF's focus, then I'd want to know why it doesn't seem to be making an impact. And if the JGF is getting most of its money from MLB, I'd want to know why that investment doesn't seem to be paying any dividends. And if you think that the best way to address this problem is to name an award after Josh Gibson, then I'd want to know what you're smoking and who your supplier is.

[Cool Papa Bell]

I think the only people in an echo chamber are you and a handful of others. Most of the rest of the world has recognized the abilities and achievements of Black Baseball for the past 150 years and is doing their part to try to shine a light on history. You do nothing. You add nothing. Certainly nothing positive, though it's fun to keep you talking. This way people outside your echo chamber can see the real you.

Originally Posted by Westheim

Maybe we should join his echo chamber.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

I guess beyond intellectually lazy you are also maliciously deceptive.

Well, when the name calling starts, that's the time for me to leave. To sum up, then: you think you're "doing something" by advocating for MLB to change the name of the MVP award. I, on the other hand, think that "doing something" means doing something that tangibly benefits the black community, and that "raising awareness" of Josh Gibson by naming an award after him is the equivalent of "sending thoughts and prayers" to the families of a mass shooting's victims. It's an empty gesture that primarily makes you feel good about yourself while doing very little for the people that you are ostensibly trying to help. And why is it necessary to raise awareness of Josh Gibson anyway? He's in the freakin' Hall of Fame! Didn't that raise enough awareness of him? And if not, then why do you think naming an award for him will make a difference?

Forget it, don't bother answering those questions. Like I said, I'm done here.

[Cool Papa Bell]

My goodness, how many times have I had to say in this thread I don't care about who's name is on the MVP Award. I have said that there are three choices. Three. Josh Gibson, Branch Rickey, Frank Robinson. How this thread turned into the nonsense it has is beyond me. This all started with the crazy talk that got added to this thread. Who ever in all of these posts said that naming the award after Josh Gibson was just about Josh Gibson. If you bothered to read it, it was about shining the light and giving recognition to the past and over 3,000 players that played behind a color barrier. Who ever said it's about one man?

If you don't start somewhere raising awareness about issues, then you are nothing more than the same thoughts and prayers people that you mentioned. I'm not about thoughts and prayers, I'm about doing what I can to help. Many people volunteer, fund raise, advocate. What have you done? Nothing I am sure.

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Well, when the name calling starts, that's the time for me to leave. To sum up, then: you think you're "doing something" by advocating for MLB to change the name of the MVP award. I, on the other hand, think that "doing something" means doing something that tangibly benefits the black community, and that "raising awareness" of Josh Gibson by naming an award after him is the equivalent of "sending thoughts and prayers" to the families of a mass shooting's victims. It's an empty gesture that primarily makes you feel good about yourself while doing very little for the people that you are ostensibly trying to help. And why is it necessary to raise awareness of Josh Gibson anyway? He's in the freakin' Hall of Fame! Didn't that raise enough awareness of him? And if not, then why do you think naming an award for him will make a difference?

Forget it, don't bother answering those questions. Like I said, I'm done here.

[CONN CHRIS]

Man, there are some ugly yet predictable triggers being activated here.

[Cool Papa Bell]

I guess I should have realized that going in, and there hasn't been that many thankfully all things considered but yeah, I guess it was predictable. All I wanted to do was let who I thought were sports fans know what was going on with the MLB MVP Award. Kennesaw Mountain Landis name was taken off of it a long time ago. MLB itself let Sean Gibson know his great-grandfather was being considered, no one is advocating MLB to name it that. But now that there are three names being considered, I think that the sentiment behind why Josh Gibson makes sense. If people agree great, go sign the petition. If they don't great, that's fine too. But don't come in here with zero knowledge on something and belittle an effort that you don't know a single thing about. I guess I feel if you don't respond, then silence makes one complicit. If anyone has something other than personal opinion to add, like actual facts from real historians, that says otherwise than please by all means show everyone. I'm doing that, let's see whatcha got. And please don't reword everything into statements that were never said to fit your own personal narrative.

[CONN CHRIS]

I am still thankful for your posting. This was not on my radar previously.

[Antonin]

I'm saddened, but not surprised, at the bitterness of some of this pushback against an issue that should be a source of friendly and informative discussion. With some of you guys its as if someone threatened your first-born child or something similar.

No matter what a black person does, or has done, or will do, a lot of white folks are going to complain that any accolades he or she gets are because of "political correctness" and "white liberal guilt." It's as if their world and the sanitized version of history that they cling to will come crashing down just to consider the possibility that a black person is worthy of anything other than being subservient.

When I was growing up the elders in my family always reminded me: "We have to work twice as hard to get half as far."

I didn't understand that back then. I understand it completely now.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Wonder what Franklin Stubbs thinks?

Franklin Stubbs didn't have any use for bull****. Neither did I, and that's the reason we became great friends.