Has to be error in ratings

[LoganGene]

lmao you alright?

[LoganGene]

enough arguing about this my man needs to be held, this is just a game after all

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by LoganGene

I've pitched my entire life from peewee through college and the stuff you guys are saying is just flat wrong, use ad hominem attacks all you want

We are just describing how the game works, not trying to convince anyone of the sabermetric view of pitching vs. traditional. The game devs made their decision on that long ago...pitchers ratings in this game don't affect base hits, they never have. If you choose to ignore that information and play less effectively as a result, that is up to you.

[LoganGene]

I'm just pointing out how flawed it is for a game that prides itself on realism. Obviously perfect team is not the place to go for realism but that's not going to stop me from being critical of it.

[LoganGene]

Sorry to get back into this but I saw that someone said Hr/9 is related to movement yet Bieber and Verlander have almost identical stats in that area but Verlander has 20 more movement?

[chazzycat]

Verlander is a special edition, not a live card.

[ineedplayerpics]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Verlander is a special edition, not a live card.

Lol that guy is just looking for something to be angry at

[LoganGene]

I'm not angry? I know that it's a special edition does that change the fact that it's based off of Verlander's actual stats?
I know you guys don't like people being critical of this game but come on.

[LoganGene]

You know live cards don't have to be synonymous with being terrible?

[LoganGene]

I feel like I'm crazy for calling a spade a spade here.

[chazzycat]

I've got no problem with anyone being critical of the game, I'm critical myself pretty often. I just haven't agreed with these particular criticicisms. That Verlander card is the reward for collecting hundreds of live cards...it makes perfect sense to be stronger. Live cards are like the intro to PT - like a "starter set". They are cheap, accessible cards, in plenty of supply due to all the packs being full of them. Then you graduate to historical cards as the game progresses.

[LoganGene]

I understand how the game works currently, yes.

[LoganGene]

Maybe they should have Live Leagues and Non-Live leagues??

[ubernoob]

Not even that could stop your whining.

[LoganGene]

Dude why are you attacking me? That's just weird and aggressive, we're talking about something we're all decently passionate about, just chill. wtf

[LoganGene]

You can respond to me without being so zealous, this is a discussion.

[Fenixdown]

You know, I've thought about this a good bit since I read OOTP's response to what they view for determining pitching ratings. And I have to say that not ONLY are they absolutely flat WRONG....they're stupid. And have CLEARLY never watched a single actual baseball game in their lifetimes.

First off, saying that ERA is a defensive stat is like saying wins are a pitcher's stat. I don't care how much Michael Wilbon screams about it...they're both WRONG. WINS are a TEAM stat. ERA is a PITCHING stat. Why is that, you ask? Ever looked at what DOESN'T count against a pitcher's ERA? Oh yeah. ERRORS. DEFENSIVE STAT! WOAH, GO FIGURE! So...obviously, baseball statistics that have been recorded for over a CENTURY say you are stupid for thinking differently. ERA is ABSOLUTELY a 100% pitching statistic.

AND on THAT note....know why else Out of the Pockets is full of no-baseball-knowledge dingalings? They hold every single pitcher in HISTORY to the exact SAME statistical sabermetric....without EVER considering the ERA they played in. Same with hitters, for that matter. Now, you could sit there and argue that DeGrom or Kershaw or Verlander or any of the top pitchers in the game today are "nothing like the good ol' days"...and you'd only be HALF right. Know why? CUZ THE ERA THEY PLAY IN IS NOTHING LIKE THE GOOD OL' DAYS, EITHER. So WHAT if Cy Young's HR/9 is miniscule in comparison? Know what else is? THE LEAGUE'S TOTAL HR/GAME AVERAGE OF HIS ENTIRE LIFESPAN. take his WORST HR/9 season and compare the total number of league home runs, and you know what you see? OVER FIFTY PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE IN THE MAJORITY OF DEGROM'S CAREER HAVING MORE THAN DOUBLE (yes....DOUBLE) TOTAL HOME RUNS HIT. The top ten are nearly QUADRUPLE.

If you're trying to tell me that, right this minute, you dropped Cy Young into 2021 on the Cleveland Indians and he would STILL have a nearly microscopic HR/9 total in one season...YOU ARE STUPID. Likewise, if you told me you dropped Jacob DeGrom into 1920 and he would have HIS total HR/9....you are, AGAIN, stupid. DeGrom, at this point, isn't even ARGUABLY one of the five GREATEST right-handed starters in HISTORY....he just IS. BUT NOT ACCORDING TO PERFECT TEAM AND OUT OF THE POCKETS!!!! Cuz, you know...they know a looooooooooot about baseball. They read a book by Theo Epstein once, so clearly they understand the game better than us pleb fans that have watched and enjoyed it for DECADES.

Earned Run Average should count 50% towards stuff rating AND 50% towards movement rating. Also, wild pitches should count towards control rating. AND FURTHERMORE, ERA (not earned run average, but era as in timeframe) should be factored in for EVERY SINGLE PLAYER. Like, if you look at Cy Young's career, a lot of his seasons he didn't even have one of the ten best ERA's in HIS OWN LEAGUE. He just gets the award named after him because of his success in winning half his 48-50 starts a year and longevity. Honestly, they should have renamed it DECADES ago to the Sandy Koufax Award, because he's the single greatest pitcher in baseball HISTORY.

So, to summarize, anyone trying to argue that "ERA is a defensive stat" or "HR/9 matters more than ERA in EVERY ERA OF BASEBALL ALWAYS AND FOREVER" clearly knows as much about the game of baseball as a Goldfish Cracker knows about quantum time travel theory. I know it's hard...but I'm sure you can maybe figure out what that actually means.

[ubernoob]

If you put a world class defense behind a pitcher and the worst defense of all time behind a pitcher, would they have they same ERA?

If you think ERA is a pitcher stat, well... you don't really understand the concept then and you are the goldfish cracker.

[tentin_quarantino]

Originally Posted by Fenixdown

ERA (not earned run average, but era as in timeframe)

You wouldn't have had to clarify this if you didn't randomly capitalize it.

[Fenixdown]

Originally Posted by tentin_quarantino

You wouldn't have had to clarify this if you didn't randomly capitalize it.

Touche, salesman.


But ubernoob, I'll entertain your theory. Let's look at some historical pitcher seasons and their defenses in comparison to their season.


1973 : Nolan Ryan
ERA : 2.87
Hits allowed : 238
Walks : 162
K's : 383


California Angels 1973 team defensive stats

fielding % : .975
team errors : 156
Zone rating : -49
Number of fielders with double digit errors that year : four (including Rudy Meoli's oh-so-impressive 30 errors at shortstop)


You're right. That defense was obviously pretty darned.....impressive. As in not very impressively good. But Ryan had one of the best seasons of his career. So, based off of your statement, his ERA should have been somewhere around like 4.00 because that defense was not very good. But it wasn't. Why was it 2.87? OH YEAH. CUZ DEFENSE DIDN'T MATTER.


Let's take another example!


1995 Greg Maddux
ERA : 1.63
Hits allowed : 147
Walks : 23
K's : 181


1995 Atlanta Braves team defense

RTO% : 22%
Number of players with double digit errors : 2 (Chipper Jones, in all of his wonderful defensive prowess, committed an astonishingly low 25 errors at third)
Team fielding percentage : .982
Zone rating : +19


Now....Jones aside, that's a pretty dang good defense. You're going to sit there and try to tell me, though, that Greg Maddux, a renowned contact pitcher, ONLY had this season because of that? Like...his catchers were bad, his third baseman was worse...they were good but not perfect. Again...NO.



Let's actually look at a team instead of individuals. Let's look at probably one of the greatest defensive teams ever assembled.


1985 St. Louis Cardinals


Team defensive stats
Fielding % : .983
Zone rating : +50 (holy crap!)
Team errors : 108

Team ERA : 3.10


By your logic, every single pitcher on that squad should have had the single greatest seasons of their careers. They had a starter with an ERA on the wrong side of over 4.00 (4.75) and another close to 4.00 (3.90). How did a defense of Ozzie Smith, Terry Pendleton, Andy Van Slyke, Willie McGee, and company allow that? Clearly it was their fault entirely, and NOT the pitcher!


So....just...just stop. Defense means jack diddly balls to a pitcher's ERA. The pitcher's ability to prevent runners from getting on base does. When you watch a game, and let's say it has a total of 20 hits, do you notice A. a game where all 20 hits were plays that the defender miiiiiiiiight have gotten to it if they were just good enough or B. a game where about 18 of those 20 hits were a good 40 feet away from anyone possibly being able to field it. If a person can't get to a ball, how can you say that's the defender's fault? Do they have teleportation powers that we've just never seen them use before? NO.



Heck, let's take a RECENT game? Did you see that Phillies/Mets game last night? You're telling me that it's somehow David Hale's fault that Rhys Hoskins is a total bonehead? You're....you're joking. Tell me that's a joke! Like...that play was on par with Jose Canseco letting a ball bounce off his noggin levels of hilariously horrendous.


So...no. ERA is not determined by defense. It is determined by the pitcher's ability to get batters out by either a. making them swing and miss a lot (Ryan), or b. not giving them anything they can get a hit on (Maddux). It is absolutely a pitcher stat.



So let's try that again...