Stamina: What Do We Know? Do We Know Things? Let's Find Out!

kriscolic · 02-23-2021, 11:28 PM

Pitcher stamina is, judging from the existing threads on these forums, one of the most mysterious elements of this game. We can all agree, I'm sure, that, all else being equal, starters with more stamina can throw more pitches in a game before succumbing to fatigue and will, therefore, accrue more innings per start and per season. Beyond that is there anything that we know for certain?

If anybody out there has done any work on the topic that has lead to clear conclusions, I'm all ears. The more specific the better.

If anybody has particular questions, this would be an opportunity to throw them out to the group.

I'll start with a question that's at the top of my mind at the moment: Does "effective stamina" (i.e. a pitcher's ability to work deep into games) increase linearly as the "stamina rating" (in the player editor screen) increases, or are there inflection points along the way (i.e. is there a difference in magnitude between going from (for example) 50 to 51 on the one hand and going from 100 to 101 on the other)?

I welcome any thoughts on the matter...

pgjocki · 02-23-2021, 11:37 PM

I think it heavily depends upon which era you are playing as well. I know at least one of the developers has stated there is a third time through the lineup penalty so that alone will negate a guy with high stamina pitching more innings than a peer.

I've found significant success in playing games out where I get through the lineup twice then yank him the first walk or hit the third time through. You need to carry 13 to 14 pitchers to pull this off over a string of games but it optimizes each guy.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

kriscolic · 02-24-2021, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgjocki

I think it heavily depends upon which era you are playing as well. I know at least one of the developers has stated there is a third time through the lineup penalty so that alone will negate a guy with high stamina pitching more innings than a peer.

I've found significant success in playing games out where I get through the lineup twice then yank him the first walk or hit the third time through. You need to carry 13 to 14 pitchers to pull this off over a string of games but it optimizes each guy.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Everything is relative, no? A pitcher will fare worse and worse against a given batter the more times they face off in a game. But a sufficiently great pitcher would, even the third time through the order, be more effective than a poor-quality replacement. For example: in a close game, give me peak Pedro the third time through rather than John Wasdin or whoever.

Which relates to another question I have about stamina...

I'm assuming that the developers derive the stamina rating (at least partially) from stats like innings-per-start and pitches-per-start. The leaders in these categories are often the best pitchers, as they are the most efficient at getting outs, and not necessarily those who are the most resistant to fatigue. On the other hand, though, there are hurlers like Bronson Arroyo and Livan Hernandez, examples of good, not great pitchers, able to pitch all day long. So: to what extent is "Stamina" just another measure of quality? How is it distinct from the physical ability to throw a lot of pitches without getting tired? How can we unravel the two (in real life as well as in the game)?

kriscolic · 02-24-2021, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgjocki

I think it heavily depends upon which era you are playing as well. I know at least one of the developers has stated there is a third time through the lineup penalty so that alone will negate a guy with high stamina pitching more innings than a peer.

I've found significant success in playing games out where I get through the lineup twice then yank him the first walk or hit the third time through. You need to carry 13 to 14 pitchers to pull this off over a string of games but it optimizes each guy.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

As for your point about era, yes, of course. The argument from absurdity is manifested in the earliest days of the National League. In an era when a single pitcher started and completed the great majority of his team's games, relative measure of stamina lose all significance rather quickly. Who was the real workhorse between Tim Keefe and Pud Galvin?

joefromchicago · 02-24-2021, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kriscolic

If anybody out there has done any work on the topic that has lead to clear conclusions, I'm all ears. The more specific the better. .

Check out this thread.

EDIT: I just noticed that you participated in that thread. So no need to remind you of that

kriscolic · 02-25-2021, 11:56 PM

OK, so I'll pose another question.

This is entirely anecdotal, but I get the impression that AI sticks with ineffective starters who have high stamina deeper into games than it does similarly ineffective starters with low stamina. It seems that every time an AI starter puts up something like an 8-inning, 6-run line it's by a high stamina starter (I'm currently playing a late 80's/early 90's historical game, so pitchers actually did put up such lines from time to time). My guess is that a high stamina in some sense forces the AI to have those starters accumulate relatively large quantities of innings with a somewhat lesser emphasis on effectiveness.

Can anybody speak more definitively on this?

Garlon · 02-26-2021, 12:36 AM

If you are playing historical games, the League Totals Modifiers will control the IP per GS for a given season. By default the league totals modifiers actually try to balance IP per GS and CG% for a given season.

I have found that for any season with 5-man rotations that you should set Stamina to High in the game. What happens is something like you are suggesting. With High Stamina the best pitchers will actually carry their good stuff with them further into games and they will perform closer to what you expect than if you use a lower stamina setting but you will still have the correct IP/GS for individual pitchers and the league though. The weaker pitchers will have a lower stamina and get pulled a bit earlier or have more trouble pitching well later in the games as they tire. This is what I have noticed when I have tried each of the settings. You best pitcheers historically did generally throw more innings and will have a better stamina rating too. The rating is something close to IPouts per game started*9, so if a pitcher averaged 7 inning per start, that is 21 outs, and 21*9 = 189, which is what is in the editor and if you use the 100 scale in the game that will be about a 95.

kriscolic · 02-27-2021, 06:29 PM

Thanks! This:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garlon

The rating is something close to IPouts per game started*9, so if a pitcher averaged 7 inning per start, that is 21 outs, and 21*9 = 189, which is what is in the editor and if you use the 100 scale in the game that will be about a 95.

is extremely helpful.

So stamina (as expressed in the editor, 1-250) is absolute and not relative? In other words, if I give every SP a 200 they will all have high stamina rather than average stamina (because the average would be, by definition, 200)?

Garlon · 02-28-2021, 01:13 PM

For historical leagues there is a Starting Pitcher Stamina league totals modifier, so it works in conjunction with the modifier. So if you make everyone 200, the modifier will attempt to counteract that and target the ipouts per game started in a season.

kriscolic · 02-28-2021, 06:43 PM

Thanks again. That helps some. This is one of those times that I wish the inner workings were more transparent. How wonderful it would be if we were just told straight up how the ratings and the modifiers work together and what the specific effects would be of a given combination.

I recently derived a formula for stamina by looking at real life starters in the 90's. 8.1585*e^(0.4417*(IP/GS)). Just started playing a new season, seems to be working well so far.

02-23-2021, 11:28 PM	#1
kriscolic Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 141	Stamina: What Do We Know? Do We Know Things? Let's Find Out! Pitcher stamina is, judging from the existing threads on these forums, one of the most mysterious elements of this game. We can all agree, I'm sure, that, all else being equal, starters with more stamina can throw more pitches in a game before succumbing to fatigue and will, therefore, accrue more innings per start and per season. Beyond that is there anything that we know for certain? If anybody out there has done any work on the topic that has lead to clear conclusions, I'm all ears. The more specific the better. If anybody has particular questions, this would be an opportunity to throw them out to the group. I'll start with a question that's at the top of my mind at the moment: Does "effective stamina" (i.e. a pitcher's ability to work deep into games) increase linearly as the "stamina rating" (in the player editor screen) increases, or are there inflection points along the way (i.e. is there a difference in magnitude between going from (for example) 50 to 51 on the one hand and going from 100 to 101 on the other)? I welcome any thoughts on the matter...

02-23-2021, 11:37 PM	#2
pgjocki All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Maryland - just outside DC Posts: 1,669	I think it heavily depends upon which era you are playing as well. I know at least one of the developers has stated there is a third time through the lineup penalty so that alone will negate a guy with high stamina pitching more innings than a peer. I've found significant success in playing games out where I get through the lineup twice then yank him the first walk or hit the third time through. You need to carry 13 to 14 pitchers to pull this off over a string of games but it optimizes each guy. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk __________________ - - - World Series championships: 1926, 1931, 1934, 1942, 1944, 1946, 1964, 1967, 1982, 2006, 2011

02-25-2021, 11:56 PM	#6
kriscolic Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 141	OK, so I'll pose another question. This is entirely anecdotal, but I get the impression that AI sticks with ineffective starters who have high stamina deeper into games than it does similarly ineffective starters with low stamina. It seems that every time an AI starter puts up something like an 8-inning, 6-run line it's by a high stamina starter (I'm currently playing a late 80's/early 90's historical game, so pitchers actually did put up such lines from time to time). My guess is that a high stamina in some sense forces the AI to have those starters accumulate relatively large quantities of innings with a somewhat lesser emphasis on effectiveness. Can anybody speak more definitively on this?

02-26-2021, 12:36 AM	#7
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,366	If you are playing historical games, the League Totals Modifiers will control the IP per GS for a given season. By default the league totals modifiers actually try to balance IP per GS and CG% for a given season. I have found that for any season with 5-man rotations that you should set Stamina to High in the game. What happens is something like you are suggesting. With High Stamina the best pitchers will actually carry their good stuff with them further into games and they will perform closer to what you expect than if you use a lower stamina setting but you will still have the correct IP/GS for individual pitchers and the league though. The weaker pitchers will have a lower stamina and get pulled a bit earlier or have more trouble pitching well later in the games as they tire. This is what I have noticed when I have tried each of the settings. You best pitcheers historically did generally throw more innings and will have a better stamina rating too. The rating is something close to IPouts per game started9, so if a pitcher averaged 7 inning per start, that is 21 outs, and 219 = 189, which is what is in the editor and if you use the 100 scale in the game that will be about a 95.

02-28-2021, 01:13 PM	#9
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,366	For historical leagues there is a Starting Pitcher Stamina league totals modifier, so it works in conjunction with the modifier. So if you make everyone 200, the modifier will attempt to counteract that and target the ipouts per game started in a season.

02-28-2021, 06:43 PM	#10
kriscolic Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 141	Thanks again. That helps some. This is one of those times that I wish the inner workings were more transparent. How wonderful it would be if we were just told straight up how the ratings and the modifiers work together and what the specific effects would be of a given combination. I recently derived a formula for stamina by looking at real life starters in the 90's. 8.1585e^(0.4417(IP/GS)). Just started playing a new season, seems to be working well so far.