Pitcher stamina

[Dutch Alexander]

Is anybody else unhappy about the way pitcher stamina is handled in this game? I feel there should be 2 different stamina ratings, 1 setting for how many pitches pitchers can throw in a game before tiring and 1 setting for how many days starters need to recover.

I'm playing a fictional short season semi-professional league. Teams have 23 men rosters with 4 starters and 5 relievers. Teams play 4 games per week so each starter pitches once a week. What I want is that starters in my league need 6 days to recover to 100% but still have the stamina in game to go deep in a start. As it is right now this is impossible to accomplish. I have pitcher stamina set to low in my settings. If I set stamina to very low I have almost no complete games anymore which I don't want. But with stamina set to low starters need only 3 days to recover to 100%.

The normal paterns is that the day after their start they are listed as exhausted, the second day tired, the third day slightly tired (+/- 65%) and then the next day they are 100% rested. This by the way seems to have changed a few version ago. Before starters used to go from slightly tired (65%) to rested (85%) then fully rested (100%).

What I want in my league is starters with average stamina (6 out of 8) that throw 100 pitches to go through the folowing recovery: Day 1 - (100 pitches thrown) exhausted 0%, day 2 - exhausted 20%, day 3 tired 40%, day 4 slightly tired 60%, day 5 slightly tired 80%, day 6 rested 95%, day 7 rested 100%. Something like that, but I still want these starters to be able to pitch more than 100 pitches in a game so that complete games are still possible.

As it is right now this is impossible to accomplish. When you bring down the stamina to very low complete games become obsolete and when you raise the stamina to low pitchers are fully recovered after 3 days of rest. Right now the only way to force the AI to start their starters once a week is to set the rotation mode in settings to strict order.

[jpeters1734]

going out on a limb here, since I don't play around much with league total modifiers, but couldnt you set your stamina to very low and then change your starting pitching stamina to like 1.5 or 2.0?

[Bluenoser]

There are two different settings.

Individual pitcher stamina determines how quickly he tires.

Stamina settings in league setup (Stats and AI Tab, left side near the bottom) determine how many days to fully rested.

I have never had the problem you mention. I used to play 4 man rotations on a regular schedule (162 games) and had no problems with 4 man rotations pitching deep into games and being fully rested for their next start.

I have another league with 2 man rotation, 4 games a week with each pitcher getting 2 starts. Again, no problems.

What do you have your hook settings at?

[Dutch Alexander]

The problem is that the stamina setting in league setup not only affects the days of rest required, but also how deep into games starters go. If you set this to very low, you will have almost no complete games.

I just think this setting is off a bit, by a day or so. If you set stamina to very high you see starters that threw 55 pitches the very next day at 100% rested and starters that threw 130+ pitches 100% rested after just one day. This recovery I think is much too quick and too abrupt.

If you set stamina to very low it generally only takes 4 days of rest to be 100% rested. What I would like to see is starters at 80-85% after 4 days of rest and 95-100% after 5 full days of rest. It is just not possible to find a setting were starters can go deep into games and then need 5 days of rest to get back to 100%.

Another thing is that starters rest too abruptly. The general patern you see after a start:

Day 1: 100 pitches thrown
Day 2: exhausted (0%)
Day 3: exhausted (20%)
Day 4: tired (40%)
Day 5: slightly tired (68%)
Day 6: rested (100%)

This is something that was changed a few versions ago. Before that starters would always go from slightly tired (65%) to rested (85%) and then fully rested (100%).

[Bluenoser]

That stamina setting on the left side in league setup has no affect on how far starters go in a game. It only affects length of rest.

How far a starter can go in a game is determined by individual stamina and era modifier.

You can't make 100 pitches have the exact same affect on every pitcher, it wouldn't be realistic at all.

No 2 pitchers are alike. Some pitchers can throw on 3 days rest, some need 5. We see examples of this irl every season.

[Dutch Alexander]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

That stamina setting on the left side in league setup has no affect on how far starters go in a game. It only affects length of rest.

Actually it does affect how far starters go in games. I just simulated 5 consecutive seasons in a test league, changing the stamina setting each season. All other settings remained the same. In below table you can see the clear results of this. Increasing the pitcher stamina setting leads to more innings pitched per start and more complete games.

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

How far a starter can go in a game is determined by individual stamina and era modifier.

It is also affected by the stamina setting, see above.

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You can't make 100 pitches have the exact same affect on every pitcher, it wouldn't be realistic at all.

No 2 pitchers are alike. Some pitchers can throw on 3 days rest, some need 5. We see examples of this irl every season.

I fully agree, but how many pitches a starter can throw should be determined by individual stamina rating and starting pitcher stamina modifier setting.
Not by general pitcher stamina setting.

[Dutch Alexander]

Basically what we have now is the Pitcher Stamina setting which affects how deep starters go in games as well as how quickly they recover and we have the Starting Pitcher Stamina modifier which controls how many pitches starters can throw in a game. These two allow us to manipulate how many pitches starters can throw per game anyway we want, which is great.

For example if you change the modifier to 0.100 in a modern MLB game starters will be relieved after throwing 25 pitches and when you change the modifier to 2.000 you will see starters throwing 150+ pitches.

The problem is we cannot manipulate how fast starters recover. I guess there should be a seperate recovery modifier to give us the option to manipulate this the way we want.

For me there are 3 problems at the moment:
1. We cannot manipulate the recovery time of starters without also affecting how deep starters can go in a game.
2. Recovery for starters is too quick, I feel in each setting it should take a day longer to be fully rested 100%.
3. Recovery is too abrupt. It goes from slightly tired (68%) to fully rested (100%). There should be an inbetween step (rested (85%)).

[Matt Arnold]

FYI The Rotation Size settings affects how long between games to recover. If you set that to 6, then it will take longer for guys to get back to 100%, although I think they'll generally add extra starters to the staff, which is probably not desired in this case if the league has a bunch of days off in the schedule.

[jpeters1734]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

FYI The Rotation Size settings affects how long between games to recover. If you set that to 6, then it will take longer for guys to get back to 100%, although I think they'll generally add extra starters to the staff, which is probably not desired in this case if the league has a bunch of days off in the schedule.

NO KIDDING?! I had no idea that setting did that.

[Dutch Alexander]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

FYI The Rotation Size settings affects how long between games to recover. If you set that to 6, then it will take longer for guys to get back to 100%, although I think they'll generally add extra starters to the staff, which is probably not desired in this case if the league has a bunch of days off in the schedule.

True, this indeed results in starters needing more time to recover. But this forces the AI to use a six man rotation, so this only works if you want six man rotations in your league.
If you want to have 5 man or 4 man rotations this doesn't work.

For example in my fictional league teams have 4 man rotations and 5 man bullpens and teams play 4 games per week. What I would like to see to see is starters needing 5-6 days to recover full to 100%, but this is impossible at the moment. I have the Pitcher Stamina set to Low and this results in starters being fully rested 100% after just 3 days of rest. If I change the Pitcher Stamina to Very Low they would need 1 more day to recover, but then starters will not go deep enough in games anymore as shown in my previous post and complete games will all but disappear.

I have tried to manipulate the settings to accomplish what I want. I set the rotation size to 6 with the Starting Rotation Mode set to Start Highest-Rested while allowing starters to be used in relieve. This almost works, but actually doesn't as it leads to a few problems. The 5th and 6th starters almost never start, but when they are used in relief for an inning they need 4 days to recovers since they are listed as starters and starter recovery in handled different from reliever recovery in game. Also teams only have 3 dedicated relievers which leads to fatigue, forcing the AI to use the top starters in relief. Which is something you don't want but is now impossible to avoid because it is allowed in your settings.

I think the best solution would be to have a separate modifier that allows you to adjust the recovery period for starters.

[Dutch Alexander]

Another thing is that starters recover too abruptly as I mentioned before. In past versions of OOTP starters would always go from Slightly Tired (65%) to Rested (85%) to fully Rested (100%). This was changed 2 or 3 versions ago and now starters always go from Slightly Tired (65%) to fully Rested (100%). Why was this changed?
Personally I much prefer the old system, makes more sense to me.

[Bluenoser]

There seems to be a range of percentages for each level of tiredness from my experiments. I looked at 5 different SP's and got this:

Pitchers A, B, C, D, & E

A

Day 1- 0% Ex
Day 2 - 22% Ex
Day 3 - 44% Tired
Day 4 - 72% Slightly Tired
Day 5 - 100%

B

Day 1- 0% Ex
Day 2 - 19% Ex
Day 3 - 41% Tired
Day 4 - 69% Slightly Tired
Day 5 - 100%

C

Day 1- 0% Ex
Day 2 - 21% Ex
Day 3 - 43% Tired
Day 4 - 70% Slightly Tired
Day 5 - 100%

D

Day 1- 0% Ex
Day 2 - 19% Ex
Day 3 - 40% Tired
Day 4 - 68% Slightly Tired
Day 5 - 100%

E

Day 1- 0% Ex
Day 2 - 20% Ex
Day 3 - 42% Tired
Day 4 - 70% Slightly Tired
Day 5 - 100%


I don't see a problem with that. Makes sense the biggest jump in recovery would come on the last day of rest.

[Dutch Alexander]

Below shows 3 recovery examples from OOTP19. You can see here that recovery was handled a bit different. These examples are from a modern MLB game with Pitcher Stamina set to Very Low.
The first example shows a starter with stamina 75 (20-80 scale) and the second a starter with stamina 60, both with a fairly typical workload.
The third example is a starter with stamina 70 recovering from a somewhat higher workload.
As you can see they always go from slightly tired to rested (80%) to fully rested. In the present version of the game this is handled different as can be seen in your Bluenoser's examples. Now starters stay exhausted longer and then recover more abruptly going from slightly tired to fully rested. You can argue which is better but I prefer the old way. Anyway I simply noticed that this part of the game has been changed.

But the main point I'm trying to make is that there is no way to manipulate the recovery period for starters any way you like withou also influencing how deep starters go in games. You can manipulate the amount of pitches starters can throw per game by changing the modifier but there is no modifier for recovery. The only way to change the recovery is by changing the Pitcher Stamina setting, but then you also change how deep starters go in games.

[Rain King]

If I remember, I think pitchers' were thought to be too effective on short rest...so that likely led to the changes on the final day before full rest that is being mentioned.

[Dutch Alexander]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

Why was this changed?

Originally Posted by Rain King

If I remember, I think pitchers' were thought to be too effective on short rest...so that likely led to the changes on the final day before full rest that is being mentioned.

OK that would make sense, good answer. Did not know that.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

Is anybody else unhappy about the way pitcher stamina is handled in this game?

Yes. Take a look at this thread: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=322152

[Dutch Alexander]

Below a recovery example from OOTP21. It shows the rest status of a starter with stamina 65 in a modern MLB game after 2 days and 3 days of rest. For both days I changed the Pitcher Stamina in the settings to see the effect of this. Above each column I noted the stamina setting used.

As you can see there is no difference between Very Low, Low and Normal. In fact after 2 days of rest the rest status is 1% higher at Low then it is at Normal for some reason. When you change the stamina to High this pitcher is fully rested 100%. That's an enormous difference between Normal stamina and High stamina. And it seems there is very little difference in recovery between Very Low, Low and Normal stamina. These setting appear to affect only how deep starters go in games, not how quick they recover.

So as it is right now we have the option to choose a stamina setting that leads to EXTREME (unrealisticly so?) quick recovery, but there is no option to slow this down.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

NO KIDDING?! I had no idea that setting did that.

Same here. I've been recommending that players should set their league rotation size to six if they want to get historically accurate results for pre-reliever-era leagues. But I had no idea that league rotation size also affected between-game recovery for starters. That does, however, help explain some of the strange things I've been seeing in my historical replays.

As I mentioned in my previously linked thread, stamina in OOTP really is measuring two different things: how many pitches a pitcher can throw in a game (in-game stamina or tiredness) and how fast a pitcher can recover from a start (between-game stamina or recovery). As Dutch Alexander points out, there are a number of reasons why this is an unsatisfactory arrangement, and the game would be improved if the two different types of stamina - tiredness and recovery - could be broken out.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

The problem is that the stamina setting in league setup not only affects the days of rest required, but also how deep into games starters go. If you set this to very low, you will have almost no complete games.

I just think this setting is off a bit, by a day or so. If you set stamina to very high you see starters that threw 55 pitches the very next day at 100% rested and starters that threw 130+ pitches 100% rested after just one day. This recovery I think is much too quick and too abrupt.

If you set stamina to very low it generally only takes 4 days of rest to be 100% rested. What I would like to see is starters at 80-85% after 4 days of rest and 95-100% after 5 full days of rest. It is just not possible to find a setting were starters can go deep into games and then need 5 days of rest to get back to 100%.

Another thing is that starters rest too abruptly. The general patern you see after a start:

Day 1: 100 pitches thrown
Day 2: exhausted (0%)
Day 3: exhausted (20%)
Day 4: tired (40%)
Day 5: slightly tired (68%)
Day 6: rested (100%)

This is something that was changed a few versions ago. Before that starters would always go from slightly tired (65%) to rested (85%) and then fully rested (100%).

I don't have a current league in season but this is not how my pitchers go in v21. First of all they pitch every 5th day and definitely go like the bold above on the 3rd and 4th day rest. From memory I think it goes 23% 42%
65% 85% (some high stamina P go to 93% on day 4 and could easily start).

Are you sure you don't have some global setting that causes this 6 day thing? I've had recovery, like the bold, for every version I've played. I do vary SP and RP stamina via league totals modifier from season to season.

[Dutch Alexander]

Originally Posted by RchW

I don't have a current league in season but this is not how my pitchers go in v21. First of all they pitch every 5th day and definitely go like the bold above on the 3rd and 4th day rest. From memory I think it goes 23% 42%
65% 85% (some high stamina P go to 93% on day 4 and could easily start).

Are you sure you don't have some global setting that causes this 6 day thing? I've had recovery, like the bold, for every version I've played. I do vary SP and RP stamina via league totals modifier from season to season.

Not sure what kind of league you run, but in OOTP21 starter recovery most definitely goes as below. Just start a modern MLB league and you will see.

Day 1: 100 pitches thrown
Day 2: exhausted (0%)
Day 3: exhausted (20%)
Day 4: tired (40%)
Day 5: slightly tired (68%)
Day 6: rested (100%)

This was changed in OOTP20. I still have OOTP19 and OOTP20 and after some testing the recovery changed between these 2 versions.