Christmas Wish 2020: Please Put Women's Baseball in OOTP!

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by ablobj

I don't think this thread shows that "demand is clearly growing"...it's basically just 5 or 6 people on either side arguing lol. It would be a fun addition to the game though.

OK, show me a thread from six months or more ago with "5 or 6 people" asking for females and other genders. Also, it's naive to think that the people participating in this thread are the only people who play OOTP who would want this added.

[jeffw3000]

I am not totally against adding women to OOTP, though I do not think we need other gender identities, as that might cost you more players than you would gain by adding women and gender identities. That said, I am not against adding the other true gender, in fact as someone who plays historical, I would love to replay the AAGPBL. I doubt this is as easy as some think to add a gender, and get the game to recognize the different genders correctly. Especially if it is done right.

1. The game would need to recognize when it needs to create a female facegen, when dealing with females.

2. Also, play by play would need to be altered to recognize gender, and use correct pronouns. This could be an undertaking in it's own.

3. The development system would need to be altered, because women would need to develop differently, not to mention there is not a lot of data on how women should develop. You do not want a bunch of women developing into MLB players or even being able to play Minor league ball, so you would need to make sure they develop properly.

4. The game would have to recognize the difference between women and men leagues. You do not want men crashing and dominating the women's league.

5. The player creation system would also need to be altered to recognize and create female players differently at a proper talent level.

These are just some of the obstacles I could think of, that Markus and company would need to change, when adding women to the OOTP world. I am sure there are others I did not think of.

It seems to me that trying to add females would be a pretty big undertaking, for something that is not really going to bring you that much additional business.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by jeffw3000

I am not totally against adding women to OOTP

Well, that's good

though I do not think we need other gender identities

Uh oh

as that might cost you more players than you would gain by adding women and gender identities

Imagine being that pathetic
I am not suggesting some people are not that pathetic

That said, I am not against adding the other true gender

Uh oh

1. The game would need to recognize when it needs to create a female facegen, when dealing with females.

Doesn't seem that difficult
Full disclosure, I am not a programmer.

2. Also, play by play would need to be altered to recognize gender, and use correct pronouns. This could be an undertaking in it's own.

This has been thrown around as a hindrance.
Again, as a non programmer, I don't see why
Is there no way to search the code and replace?

3. The development system would need to be altered, because women would need to develop differently, not to mention there is not a lot of data on how women should develop. You do not want a bunch of women developing into MLB players or even being able to play Minor league ball, so you would need to make sure they develop properly.

I imagine some people would want women to develop into major and minor league players.

Again, the game allows for professional male players from nations where no "baseball infrastructure" exists and I don't see any complaints about that. So, this argument against women in the game doesn't make sense to me.

4. The game would have to recognize the difference between women and men leagues. You do not want men crashing and dominating the women's league.

Doesn't seem, to this non-programmer to be especially difficult.

5. The player creation system would also need to be altered to recognize and create female players differently at a proper talent level.

Similar to development, this seems like a non-arbitrary sticking point for some people.

We don't know what the "proper" talent level for players from Tuvalu is, but there aren't many complaints about that.

It seems to me that trying to add females would be a pretty big undertaking, for something that is not really going to bring you that much additional business.

Their can be other considerations besides business considerations.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by jeffw3000

I am not totally against adding women to OOTP, though I do not think we need other gender identities, as that might cost you more players than you would gain by adding women and gender identities. That said, I am not against adding the other true gender, in fact as someone who plays historical, I would love to replay the AAGPBL. I doubt this is as easy as some think to add a gender, and get the game to recognize the different genders correctly. Especially if it is done right.

1. The game would need to recognize when it needs to create a female facegen, when dealing with females.

2. Also, play by play would need to be altered to recognize gender, and use correct pronouns. This could be an undertaking in it's own.

3. The development system would need to be altered, because women would need to develop differently, not to mention there is not a lot of data on how women should develop. You do not want a bunch of women developing into MLB players or even being able to play Minor league ball, so you would need to make sure they develop properly.

4. The game would have to recognize the difference between women and men leagues. You do not want men crashing and dominating the women's league.

5. The player creation system would also need to be altered to recognize and create female players differently at a proper talent level.

These are just some of the obstacles I could think of, that Markus and company would need to change, when adding women to the OOTP world. I am sure there are others I did not think of.

It seems to me that trying to add females would be a pretty big undertaking, for something that is not really going to bring you that much additional business.

The thing is with most of what you bring is that it's already been done in other games. If Baseball Mogul was able to introduce women some 10 years or so ago (even in a fictional capacity), there is no reason OOTP can't do it. OOTP is already lightyears ahead, but somehow this particular topic tend to drag behind. There could be a number of reasons for it, but it being too difficult, is in my opinion not one of them.
Would it be challenging ? Maybe. Would it be time consuming ? More than likely.
It's not like the ask is completely outrageous, like someone demanding a league be created from the Lord of the Rings universe, or like if I was demanding OOTP gets all the teams from my 6000 town and its neighboring villages from Canada in the base game. People are asking that women and their leagues be introduced, as they have been playing the game of baseball for quite a while now.
And I'm pretty sure that the amount of special individuals that would be outraged in such a way that they would not ever purchase the game anymore would be so small it would be offset by the amount of new buyers, who then in turn might feel inclined to throw buckets of dollars at the PT cash cow.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by eldur00

And I'm pretty sure that the amount of special individuals that would be outraged in such a way that they would not ever purchase the game anymore would be so small it would be offset by the amount of new buyers, who then in turn might feel inclined to throw buckets of dollars at the PT cash cow.

Also, if I had to choose between some people not buying my product because it didn't include women, and some people not buying my product because it did include women - that would be an easy choice.

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by jeffw3000

I am not totally against adding women to OOTP, though I do not think we need other gender identities, as that might cost you more players than you would gain by adding women and gender identities. That said, I am not against adding the other true gender

Any gender that exists through real living people is a true gender, period. And if the inclusion of real gender identities that real people embody causes a couple gamers to leave this community due to their hurtful and exclusionary worldview being threatened, then I take that as a net positive.

Originally Posted by jeffw3000

1. The game would need to recognize when it needs to create a female facegen, when dealing with females.

2. Also, play by play would need to be altered to recognize gender, and use correct pronouns. This could be an undertaking in it's own.

3. The development system would need to be altered, because women would need to develop differently, not to mention there is not a lot of data on how women should develop. You do not want a bunch of women developing into MLB players or even being able to play Minor league ball, so you would need to make sure they develop properly.

4. The game would have to recognize the difference between women and men leagues. You do not want men crashing and dominating the women's league.

5. The player creation system would also need to be altered to recognize and create female players differently at a proper talent level.

These are just some of the obstacles I could think of, that Markus and company would need to change, when adding women to the OOTP world. I am sure there are others I did not think of.

It seems to me that trying to add females would be a pretty big undertaking, for something that is not really going to bring you that much additional business.

With all due respect, all of these concerns are things that we have already been talking about and referencing data for in this thread. I would recommend you check out some of the links in the OP if you're personally interested. Frankly, unless I missed you being a game developer with OOTP, I don't see why you're softly pushing back against women in OOTP by making excuses on behalf of Markus. You clearly feel represented by the game and so do not feel this is a big deal. But for people who do experience being left out of the game and baseball in general (+their allies), this is a much bigger deal that is no less fundamental than making sure such and such GM minutia is represented in-game. Thus we're not really sympathetic to the argument "it will take time and resources" because we have been waiting 20+ game versions for this to materialize

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by MaeNekoChan

. . . by making excuses on behalf of Markus.

Speaking of whom, and I am not directing this only at him, but unless I have missed something in this already mammoth thread, I have not seen any official responses. That does not mean they are not noticing and following this discussion, however. It is one definite distinction about this company that it does pay attention to its community.

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Speaking of whom, and I am not directing this only at him, but unless I have missed something in this already mammoth thread, I have not seen any official responses. That does not mean they are not noticing and following this discussion, however. It is one definite distinction about this company that it does pay attention to its community.

Yes and I do love seeing them around here so HELLO MARKUS hope your day is going well ^_^

Edit: And other official friends, hello

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

I have not seen any official responses.

Yeah
Kinda sad
Don't wanna miss out on any of that sweet sweet money from people like this

Or don't want to, publicly, align with them

[RonCo]

Adding support for multiple genders (including non-binary and trans) is clearly the right thing to do from both the social and business side of the conversation. Given the full expectation that inclusion of multiple genders would by definition be configurable by league (option) I can't see any reasonable argument over the base idea. Like every other feature, it needs to be done well (released without bugs)--and like most complex OOTP features I'd expect it to take a version or three to get working as well as everyone would want it to, but these things go without saying.

Why this is even a discussion says a lot about the world.

For my two cents, I'm not sure any official word needs to be made beyond a delivery schedule for when the feature will be included.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Yeah
Kinda sad
Don't wanna miss out on any of that sweet sweet money from people like this

Or don't want to, publicly, align with them

I don't see it that way. I can understand wanting to take the diplomatic approach and not publicly take a stand one way or another until they are ready to do so. While I agree 100% with including women and their leagues in the game, I also can understand it's a lot easier for me to publicly stand my moral ground - it is not my bottom line that risk being affected.
That being said, I don't think their bottom line would be affected at all, and also believe that delivering within the game all the genders with their leagues would give them some nice positive press. This is 2020, the year of wokeness. It's probably, from a PR perspective alone, the best time to do it to be honest. They would get to do the right thing AND get praise for it as a nice bonus.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by eldur00

I don't see it that way. I can understand wanting to take the diplomatic approach and not publicly take a stand one way or another until they are ready to do so. While I agree 100% with including women and their leagues in the game, I also can understand it's a lot easier for me to publicly stand my moral ground - it is not my bottom line that risk being affected.
That being said, I don't think their bottom line would be affected at all, and also believe that delivering within the game all the genders with their leagues would give them some nice positive press. This is 2020, the year of wokeness. It's probably, from a PR perspective alone, the best time to do it to be honest. They would get to do the right thing AND get praise for it as a nice bonus.

Let's get one thing straight - this isn't about "wokeness" (whatever the heck that even means) or public relations. If those are the reasons this addition to OOTP is made, then it'll be a damn shame.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Let's get one thing straight - this isn't about "wokeness" (whatever the heck that even means) or public relations. If those are the reasons this addition to OOTP is made, then it'll be a damn shame.

Oh I agree, I'm not saying they have to do it for it. Just that it would be a byproduct of doing the right thing.

[ablobj]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

OK, show me a thread from six months or more ago with "5 or 6 people" asking for females and other genders. Also, it's naive to think that the people participating in this thread are the only people who play OOTP who would want this added.

It was intended to be a lighthearted and slightly sarcastic remark...after spending about 30 minutes reading the entire thread last night, I noticed that at least half the posts seemed to be the same people arguing back and forth over and over again. I agree that the demand is there and, after reading the thread a second time and ignoring all of the arguing and name-calling posts, there are a lot of great points being made in this thread.

[CD360]

I agree with the consensus here and I feel like this would fit into the game pretty easily. Every league can have a box to input what percent of the players created should be women (same thing the game already does with nationality) and below that player creation modifiers for female players. Everyone gets to set it how they want and the devs don’t have to worry about making female players realistic. You could also make female development and aging its own option in case someone wants to tweak that, maybe add the option for female players to be more popular too.

The current facegen for female coaches is probably good enough right now, it’s at least not bad enough to justify not adding female players. Changing the pronouns in articles honestly seems like the hardest part of this, but I can’t imagine it taking too much time to do either. Seems like an obvious addition imo, you get some publicity online and (hopefully) make the OOTP community less of a sausage festival, give a new tool for fictional players to experiment with and add some personality to major leagues that use the option. The only loss is that a few guys online are gonna complain that giving me the ability to recreate A League of Their Own is SJW Marxist propaganda.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

OK, show me a thread from six months or more ago with "5 or 6 people" asking for females and other genders. Also, it's naive to think that the people participating in this thread are the only people who play OOTP who would want this added.

I can show you threads from a decade ago about it. But I think that might have only been two people asking for it, so demand is clearly growing at some rate or other...

[Bobfather]

https://ootpnow.libsyn.com/a-convers...-kazamiyukarin

OOTP has a female new hire.

[ohiodevil]

Originally Posted by Bobfather

https://ootpnow.libsyn.com/a-convers...-kazamiyukarin

OOTP has a female new hire.

Wow awesome! She has popped in on my streams from time to time when I was doing them regularly and we had some great conversations about OOTP and baseball in general. And I got a chance to listen to her streams and she does an awesome job!

[alkeiper]

From a developers' point of view I would be wary of promising something and finding out later I couldn't deliver from some logistical point of view. So I don't view a lack of response as a negative necessarily. I hope it's on their radar.

[AESP_pres]

Thanks but no thanks...

There are thing way more important than this non-sense like real 19th century baseball (the real league progression with the real team each seasons and the two missing leagues, PL and UA) and the minor league missing years (1877 to 1913) that should have been done years ago.