Christmas Wish 2020: Please Put Women's Baseball in OOTP!

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Welcome, BBG.

Cool that you did that. But that's not for everyone.

The easiest way to think of it, for me, is imagine it's not sex, but race or ethnicity.

If face-gen only had white faces, but you could edit them to darker skin tones if you wanted.

Or if the names were all Caucasian (then joefromchicago wouldn't have had to waste her time making their Euro-centric name sets) and you just had to pretend that "John Smith" was "Juan Herrera"

Would that fly? No way.

It shouldn't fly for women

Women play baseball
There have been and are female leagues
They should be in OOTP

Then make a womens baseball mod for the community! My ability in facegen is rudimentary at best but if you find information online for a women's league, then I'll do my best to help. The news stories are the only thing that can't really be edited in advance for a mod. but names, players and such can be edited

[BusterKing]

If it's all optional and not by default I'm ok with it.

[Clavette]

Would love to see an option to add women players and front office to the game but it should be an option for people to choose.

Trans, sorry no. Enough is enough

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Woman stats?

Are those available in the league splits?

What are you talking about? Woman stats? The ones that played in the Pacific Association or Baseball Championship League (Japanese Indy League) have stats from those leagues in the games they played it. Why would you need to split their stats up? They played in a league game, they accrued stats and are in the league register for those leagues.

So with Sarah Fuller for example.....when she kicked in Vanderbilt's game, did her extra points count differently than another kicker in the NCAA? If you search the NCAA stats, do they have to split them up because she is a woman? She kicked in an NCAA D-1 game, so her stats are (and should be) listed with every other kicker that made an extra point or field goal this season. Why do you feel the need to split them?

You talk all this talk about inclusion, which is possible now since none of the players in the game have a gender, but want a split for "Woman Stats"? If you want a filter to see how the women players in a league are performing against each other, it is impossible right now because you cannot go and make a player a gender label in the game, so there is no other way to differentiate between them.

I am all for making the change to the game and as I said before with the Marlins hiring Kim Ng as GM, I would bet that the developers do something to reflect that in the next version other than just naming the Marlins GM 'Kim Ng' in the roster set, but again....what is stopping you from creating a Women's baseball league in the game or adding women to the draft classes or even editing the name.txt file to include more traditional women's names in the current version of the game?

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by BaseballNewsNow

I've read through this thread a few times, and I still can't wrap my head around some things that people are saying. I offer you, Joefromchicago, a few questions and points:

What do you gain out of making fun of cbesibol? He already gets harrassed by many others by here. This is the lowest forms of low; clearly you, in some form or another, are uneducated or just plain ignorant to others' opinions. But going after someone by changing their quote? That's just plain low.

Why do you care if people want women in their games? That seems to be direction that this world is headed: equal genders, the way that it should be. So why shouldn't a baseball simulator reflect that? And of course, if you just can't live with women in your games, there will of course an option to turn it off.

Of course making fun of cbeisbol wasn't enough, you had to promote yourself in the process. If you could sit back and just take a deep breath, you would realize that they're both just opinions. Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean that you are automatically right, you are smart, and he is stupid.

One final point, this feels like I am lecturing a child that is bullying another child. And cbeisbol, don't take this like I think you can't handle an ignorant person's pov, I just had to step in and voice my opinion.

CB is FAR from a victim around here.....yes, a lot of people are harsh on him in other threads and I admit I have had my exchange of words with him in the past, but he does make a lot of good points as well and has contributed to the community a lot more than most of the people who bash him or are harsh to him. But he dishes it out quite often too....It's the internet, people are keyboard warriors....most people wouldn't say 95% of the stuff they do (or at least how they say it) if you were having the conversation face to face instead of the safely behind their keyboard and monitor or phone screen.

I do agree that some things in this thread are a bit ridiculous.....if they include gender designations in the game....so what. It isn't going to change the game itself, it will still be the best baseball simulation game out there. Just because someone wants to revive the AAPGBL, create a bunch of women's baseball leagues or even have women enter the MLB draft....who cares. It's their game/universe, let them play it how they want to. Just because someone wants to have a female pitcher start game 3 of the World Series or come up with the bases loaded in with 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th and try and get that game winning hit is not going to ruin your day.

[luckymann]

I don't see what the big deal is.

Are you telling me that, with all that OOTP is capable of, the myriad universes and options it affords, that something as simple as gender / non-binary options are beyond its ability?

Pfft to that, I say.

Historical stats, I understand, are somewhat more problematic, as we already have to endure with negro and minor leagues. But at least if this first - relatively straightforward - step is taken, perhaps it opens the door for these IRL elements to be considered down the track. I'm sure those interested enough will mod up a storm in this regard, a startup will be created, et voila!

People need to open their minds and their hearts will follow. As fortune cookie-esque as that statement may be in its wisdom, however simplistic its philosophy, it really is that easy if we all do our bit.

[alkeiper]

Couple thoughts from a CIS male here...

1. There is 100% a market for female baseball. Women love baseball. And people who love baseball love to imagine themselves playing. Or running a team. Or anything else.

2. The idea of crafting a high level women’s league is fascinating to me. What if you did that today? Would you start with a four team league and build it up? A universe with promotion/relegation? MLB is such a monolith that’s it’s difficult to imagine a world without it. No such barrier for women.

3. Non-binary options? A thousand times yes. I don’t want to suggest what’s sufficient for me because I don’t want to limit what others would want to see.

4. Historically, I’ve been a little disappointed by even the negro league stats. This is a separate suggestion, but I’d like to see ootp add a more basic player creator where you could input your own vague information and have the game craft a player. But anyway, I think there’s quite a few historical players of interest. Jackie Mitchell, Alda Weiss. We don’t have good stats on them but we don’t have good stats on Bud Fowler either. Imagining what might have been is part of the game.

So 100% support

[Déjà Bru]

Well, MaeNekoChan, you've started quite a ruckus. I hope you are proud of yourself! ()

[You should be; you can tell a great thread by how quickly it expands and this, during OOTPB's "off season." I just hope you can get a word in edgewise here and there. ]

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by DJ_Jak_32

What are you talking about? Woman stats?

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

What on earth are "men's stats"

The ones that played in the Pacific Association or Baseball Championship League (Japanese Indy League) have stats from those leagues in the games they played it. Why would you need to split their stats up? They played in a league game, they accrued stats and are in the league register for those leagues.

So with Sarah Fuller for example.....when she kicked in Vanderbilt's game, did her extra points count differently than another kicker in the NCAA? If you search the NCAA stats, do they have to split them up because she is a woman? She kicked in an NCAA D-1 game, so her stats are (and should be) listed with every other kicker that made an extra point or field goal this season. Why do you feel the need to split them?

You talk all this talk about inclusion, which is possible now since none of the players in the game have a gender, but want a split for "Woman Stats"? If you want a filter to see how the women players in a league are performing against each other, it is impossible right now because you cannot go and make a player a gender label in the game, so there is no other way to differentiate between them.

I am all for making the change to the game and as I said before with the Marlins hiring Kim Ng as GM, I would bet that the developers do something to reflect that in the next version other than just naming the Marlins GM 'Kim Ng' in the roster set, but again....what is stopping you from creating a Women's baseball league in the game or adding women to the draft classes or even editing the name.txt file to include more traditional women's names in the current version of the game?

Might as well allow this to be repeated

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Well, MaeNekoChan, you've started quite a ruckus. I hope you are proud of yourself! ()

[You should be; you can tell a great thread by how quickly it expands and this, during OOTPB's "off season."

That's because the core of this argument isn't really about OOTP. It's about something(s) deeper than that.

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Might as well allow this to be repeated

Lol gotcha! Really didn't pay much attention to you and Joe's back and forth in earlier posts. Nice to be on the same page as you on this CB!

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

then joefromchicago wouldn't have had to waste her time making their Euro-centric name sets

That's it.

I was prepared to address your last direct response to me, as you actually climbed down from your soapbox and started talking a little about OOTP. But then you used a female pronoun in reference to me as a way of getting a jab at me. That's beneath contempt.

I would never try to insult you by referring to you as a woman because I don't consider being a woman to be an insult. That you think it's an insult is a bigger reflection on you than it is on me.

I regret that I was baited into this pointless discussion by one of this board's foremost trolls. Perhaps it was because he has already alienated about half of the members here and I was one of the few left who would interact with him. Well, that ends today.

I regret the part that I've played in this exchange of playground taunts. I regret that I stooped to the level that I did. I'll use this opportunity to remind myself that I'm better than that. I'll be deleting my posts in this thread in which I addressed CBeisbol's posts.

The ironic thing is that CBeisbol and I probably would agree on 90% of the issues that concern us, and that includes women in baseball. But he evidently feels the need to score rhetorical points in an otherwise pointless game of "gotcha!" Well, I won't play any more.

So you win, CB. Collect your prizes at the door. Just two last words before I sign off: seek help.

[BMW]

Originally Posted by MaeNekoChan

UPDATE REGARDING STATISTICS AND DATA

Hey guys so I followed the links Effectively Wild presented in podcast #1632 and so here is Luisa Gauci's presentation this year at the SABR/IWBC Women in Baseball Conference. She uses the statistics from the 2018 Women's Baseball World Cup that I mentioned earlier in this thread in order to create a 20-80 scale tailored towards the current landscape of the women's game. Here's a screenshot of the chart she uses in her presentation for those who would like to see:



This could provide a baseline for data in a contemporary women's league, especially if the Devs choose to add the Women's World Cup like I suggested previously. Here's a link to an article written about Luisa and other women's work at Driveline for some more context on this issue, plus a link to Baseball For All which is a nonprofit attempting to promote gender equality in baseball if you're interested in this topic any further ^_^

As I understand, Luisa is fairly responsive and enthusiastic about this stuff on social media, so I would encourage the Devs to reach out to her for advise on modeling women players in upcoming versions of the game.

This is some very cool and interesting data I've never seen before. Thanks for linking that. In terms of data, this actually starts compiling things that we'll never conclusively know about the ballgame in the 1800s / early 1900s. Things like pitch speed from the 1800s are really just guesswork based on extremely unreliable sources (anecdotes, one guy running or throwing a baseball against a horse or a speeding car).

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

That's it.

I was prepared to address your last direct response to me, as you actually climbed down from your soapbox and started talking a little about OOTP. But then you used a female pronoun in reference to me as a way of getting a jab at me. That's beneath contempt.

I would never try to insult you by referring to you as a woman because I don't consider being a woman to be an insult. That you think it's an insult is a bigger reflection on you than it is on me.

Why the assumption that using the "wrong" pronoun was "a jab"? The wrong pronoun is no big deal, right?

Why should I assume joefromchicago is a male? Do their posts exude some kind of manliness? How am I to know joefromchicago's sex or gender?

The point was, you're the one saying just to pretend the pronouns don't say what they say. But being referred to, I assume, by the "wrong" one seems to have crossed some kind of a line with you. Funny, that.

If I referred to you as "he", you'd have no problem with it
But if I refer to you as "she", that's not acceptable.

Kinda seems like when joefromchicago is referred to by the "wrong" pronoun it's a big deal - something nefarious even.

But if OOTP refers to all the players and coaches with male pronouns, it's fine.

Perhaps a look in the mirror is warranted.

(On that note, I also regret my part in this. I don't regret what I said - but how I said it)

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I regret that I was baited into this pointless discussion by one of this board's foremost trolls.

Imagine thinking this wasn't the bait

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I'm all in favor of adding women to OOTP. Now, where are the data?

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

That's because the core of this argument isn't really about OOTP. It's about something(s) deeper than that.

Shush. That's a quick ticket to OT-land.

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by BMW

This is some very cool and interesting data I've never seen before. Thanks for linking that. In terms of data, this actually starts compiling things that we'll never conclusively know about the ballgame in the 1800s / early 1900s. Things like pitch speed from the 1800s are really just guesswork based on extremely unreliable sources (anecdotes, one guy running or throwing a baseball against a horse or a speeding car).

Thank you, I'm glad you found it interesting! And yeah, while it's definitely only a partial dataset, that's a great point that it's still more than what we unfortunately have for other leagues/eras represented in-game. Given that there are women (including Luisa) who play on men's amateur and pro teams, I suspect there is probably some more data we can access without digging much further

[eldur00]

Females in baseball games are already a thing, but sadly, always only at the fictional level. Baseball Mogul had the option to make women enter baseball if you wanted to (but did not have any organized leagues or anything).
Super Mega Baseball also have women, but again, it's all fictional (everything is)
Even good old Baseball Stars on the NES had women you could get.
If anything, OOTP is late to the party by not even including a female option out of the box (one can create females with some additional work).
You know, there's been a lot of debates lately about how the game has been stale for the last 3 years or so. Threads in which I've participated because that's how I feel about the game. It feels like (3D aside, for which I personally have zero interest) the past 3 iterations of the game or so have stalled. And then we would argue, and make the point that maybe Markus and co. have taken the game as far as they could as far as core features. That maybe the inspiration well is not as full after 21 iterations of the game.
And then a thread gets created where definitely a new segment for the game could be created. That could indeed be a great addition to the game. I really don't understand how someone could be offended by that.
The only thing I can see, and it's been brought up already, is the potential lack of data for historical leagues. But with data that should be more easily accessible for recent history, I don't see why OOTP couldn't add it.
A lot of us have been wanting more options added to the game. Now we have a pretty decent possibility brought up, and some people just act like we are in 1929 and women should just be in the kitchen to make us a meat loaf or something. Just get over yourselves. Bigotry hasn't been cool for a good 60-70 years now.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by ThePretender

Seriously? People are against this? That's pretty damn pathetic. If you don't want this as an option don't use it, and let the people who want to do this, use it.

The issue is, it's a waste of development time and resources.

[BaseballNewsNow]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

The issue is, it's a waste of development time and resources.

Looking at this thread, there seems to be a demand for an option to create female players.

If OOTP is supposed to be realistic, then they should add women because as the Kim Ng hiring demonstrated, the sport of baseball (and the whole world for that matter) is moving towards getting rid of the sexism that has prevented women from playing baseball.

At least add an option. And if anyone objects to at least making this game more customizable and realistic, then your sexism prevents us from having a real conversation.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

The issue is, it's a waste of development time and resources.

Opinion

One not shared by many

Like I think any time spent on player pants is a waste of time and resources. Others would disagree.