Christmas Wish 2020: Please Put Women's Baseball in OOTP!

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by sdw1000

You're the one that injected politics into the a BASEBALL GAME THREAD.

Imagine having this perspective about allowing black athletes to play in the MLB or god forbid representing them in OOTP. Why are they being sooo political??? I really hope you don't dismiss the women in your life like this?

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

MaeNekoChan, seeing the above, this thread may be moved soon to Off Topic. You will be able to continue the discussion there by going to your User Control Panel, clicking Group Memberships, and selecting the option to join the Off Topic Forums group.

Oh gosh thanks for the tip! ^_^

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by MaeNekoChan

Oh gosh thanks for the tip! ^_^

Yeah, unfortunately that is the way it goes with some threads that provoke highly emotional responses. Which is a long list, these days.

And which is not a reflection on you for having made your request. Obviously, it's an interesting and legitimate topic concerning the game.

If it does go to OT, my advice is to confine yourself to looking just at this thread if you go there. A lot of nasty stuff happens in that forum and I only go there occasionally myself, such as in situations like this.

Forum moderators, please consider editing some of the objectionable posts in this thread rather than moving it to OT.

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Yeah, unfortunately that is the way it goes with some threads that provoke highly emotional responses. Which is a long list, these days.

And which is not a reflection on you for having made your request. Obviously, it's an interesting and legitimate topic concerning the game.

If it does go to OT, my advice is to confine yourself to looking just at this thread if you go there. A lot of nasty stuff happens in that forum and I only go there occasionally myself, such as in situations like this.

Forum moderators, please consider editing some of the objectionable posts in this thread rather than moving it to OT.

Agreed. Please mods, don't shut down this thread by hiding it there. If anything here is a TOS violation, please just hide it. The message shouldn't get lost behind personality

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by mytreds

If there was a market for something like the OP desired, it would be out there. Developers are not going to cater to the less than 1%, as the profits gained would not overcome the money lost. Unless they really care about wokeness. But then you risk upsetting the 80% of consumers, who come to play simulators like this to escape that nonsense.

If women or non binary people being added to your baseball spreadsheet simulator makes you stop playing said baseball spreadsheet simulator, then I suggest you take a hard look at your life and make some changes.

[CBeisbol]

In my experience, the mods move the whole thread when something like this comes up

Which, unfortunately, gives a clue as to how they consider these types of topics. And explains why some posters are comfortable making the comments they do - instead of facing repercussions themselves they get the topic hidden away. Just what they want.

[rudel.dietrich]

I forgot another important game series.
EA Sports UFC included both women’s weight classes I think in version 2 and featured a woman on the cover of two of the three games in the series.
To date it may be the best inclusion of women in mainstream sports games given the number of licensed female fighters. And the games career mode where you can create as a female fighter has every option that you have when you create a male fighter.
And MMA fans are not exactly the most progressive crowd out there but have embraced what female athletes have brought to that sport.

And this company used to make a boxing simulator that includes a database of female fighters and had female pronouns.
And this company did not lose 80% of its fan base. And that game has been in existence for almost 20 years now and the world is still spinning around the sun as far as I can tell.

[joefromchicago]

I'm all in favor of adding women to OOTP. Now, where are the data?

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I'm all in favor of adding women to OOTP. Now, where are the data?

I think this is one of the relevant questions that this thread has been dealing with, and I'm not suggesting that it has been satisfactorily answered.
But given that a rather large percentage of OOTP'ers play some version of the game which involves fictional characters for whom no data is needed (and I don't mean primarily people like me who play strictly fictional but all of the folks who play the standard game, starting with current rosters and then move forward into an unknown future), even if the data needed to fulfill some of what the OP requested is not available, women can be added to the game as an option for much of what the OOTP experience consists of for a great many gamers.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I'm all in favor of adding women to OOTP. Now, where are the data?

I don't believe you

If you've asked that question about how a league in Tuvalu would work, then I'll believe you

[joefromchicago]

[deleted]

[joefromchicago]

[deleted]

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Are you suggesting that men in Tuvalu are somehow less able than men elsewhere? That's surprisingly patronizing and colonialist of you. I'm very disappointed.

Not at all
Do you believe that if a league in Tuvalu started in 2021 that their best players would be good enough to play in the MLB?

I can certainly create such a league in OOTP

Where are the data that support that?

I'm curious why the idea that women might be as good as men in OOTP is a sticking point for you, but the idea that there are hundreds of major league ready baseball players in Tuvalu isn't

Seems patronizing and misogynist of you. I'm disappointed, but not surprised.

[joefromchicago]

[deleted]

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I don't understand this weird attitude you have toward Tuvaluan men, as if they're some different species. The stats that you're using are stats for men. Are you saying that Tuvaluan men aren't really men? That's really offensive.

I can create a 10 team league of major league quality players from Tuvalo that starts today,

But I cannot create one female rookie level player.

Is it your belief that there are, right now, at this moment 250 men in Tuvalu who are major league quality baseball players?

If yes, show the data
If no,

You're being intellectually dishonest.

[BMW]

What a different topic to see come up here.

I would be happy to see female players available. I've often played 100+ years in the future and who knows what the future holds.

I can see a lot of challenges though, and I'll note them in no real order.

In terms of high-profile women's sports - Baseball just isn't one of them. You have basketball and soccer in terms of team sports. Boxing and mixed martial arts (and pro wrestling, if you take it as sport in an acrobatic sense) in combat sports. Golf and tennis in non-team sports. I'd imagine virtually every sport in existence has female teams and leagues but all the others are much lower tier in talent and cache.

From an economic standpoint, those sports today are going to siphon off the best athletes from lesser women's sport like American football, baseball, ice hockey. The heyday of women's baseball (in terms of the top women's athletic talent being in baseball and being closest to the men's game) is probably the 1880s through the 1950s.

In the OOTP engine, the FaceGen is like... 20-year old+ tech I think spawned from the old Black Isle Fallout series (like the original Fallout series, not the 3D ones). What OOTP has done with it is pretty limited (ex: no 'hair') and of course no bodies. It could be an opportunity to upgrade. Then again, FageGen does do something pretty well - where it can randomly generate faces and also age them over time. Something that OOTP needs when you have players that go 20+ seasons from rookie to retirement.

Also note that OOTP is a great simulator in general. It's not a fantastic high school, college and semi-pro simulator. It's probably the best high school, college and indy baseball simulator just in the sense that it's probably the only one still out there. That's not a knock, just more the fact that it's built to sim major league baseball, extrapolates fairly well to minor league baseball and then attempts to extrapolate that play model to high school, college, indy leagues, etc. It was never intended to primarily play those levels - they are meant to really be flavor for the major league universe. It's not easy (or fun) to play as an indy team at a class-A level because it's not the engine's primary focus. That's the highest level that female players have risen to in the last half-century.

It would be tough to get data that could be used for female players in comparison to male counterparts. We have less than 10 players in 150 years of baseball to look at - Ila Borders (US indy leagues), Eri Yoshida (Japanese and US indy leagues), Mamie Johnson, Toni Stone and Connie Morgan (Negro Leagues - note they were all post 1948, so none of those pioneers will be major leaguers per the new MLB recognition). That's really it. The others (Liz Murphy, Jackie Mitchell, Babe Didrickson) are all semi-pro players with very little more than anecdotal cross-overs into pro baseball.

All those challenges aside and I think this is important, in OOTP I can go and create a very low level league in Lithuania. We have no data on that, but we can do it. (Everything is just assumed to be extrapolated from the major league game).

I own two lesser known baseball yearbooks from 1946 and 1947 that actually have the AAGBL stats in them. They look like normal stats from any minor league. In general the trend was exceptionally low batting average and power (and of course dominant pitching that stems from that) and exceedingly high stolen bases. There's nothing stopping me from making a minor league in OOTP that mimics the high-pitching high-speed totals of the AAGBL.

[CBeisbol]

I can create a man who is 5 foot tall, 100 lbs who as fast as the fastest player in the major leagues. And as good of a hitter as MLB's best hitter. And as good of a pitcher as MLB's best pitcher

No such player exists

I cannot create a female player who strikes out in every rookie league plate appearance she gets,

Where is the data?

[joefromchicago]

[deleted]

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Sure you can.

Create hundreds of major league quality male baseball players out of thin air?

Yes. Anyone can do that with OOTP

But no one can create a female player.

Like I said, you can do that right now, as long as you're satisfied with having women players who have men's stats. Just as you're satisfied with having Tuvaluan men with North American stats. That's the kind of accommodation that you're apparently willing to make for men, but not for women. That's a double standard. Very sad.

What on earth are "men's stats" and "North American stats"?

Are you suggesting something like women's stats or Tuvaluvan's stats should only count like 3/5 as much or something? Yikes

Someone who is 1 for 4 has a .250 batting average. North American male, Tuvaluvan male, human female, etc...
Pretty disgusting to think otherwise.

I have no idea.

Really? You have no idea? I don't want to suggest that you aren't being truthful, so, I guess your problem isn't that you are being intellectually dishonest

Do you?

Of course
It's almost certain that there are not 250 men in Tuvalu who are good enough baseball players at this moment to play in MLB.

[joefromchicago]

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