Christmas Wish 2020: Please Put Women's Baseball in OOTP!

[MaeNekoChan]

So maybe we can redirect this topic a little so people with positive contributions feel a little more comfortable and welcome. I talked about some broad ideas in the OP, but I would love to hear what others think might be some good ideas for leagues, presentation, mechanics, &c. that might contribute to this cause. Especially welcome is anyone with a knowledge of the women's game who might be able to suggest ways for their playstyle or anything else to be included ^_^

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I'm all for including diversity of all sorts in the game. I'm not a programmer, but it seems that it shouldn't be too hard to have an option for fictional leagues to choose male, female, etc. for league makeup.

However, two points about your requests quoted above. For historical women's leagues, there needs to be oodles of data available to build those leagues from. We're lucky that more than 100 years of MLB data exists, which allows those historical leagues and rosters to be created in OOTP. To my knowledge, the required data (outside of team names and player names) does not exist for the few women's leagues that existed.

And for your second request, I'm not sure how OOTP would represent those people. Players in OOTP are essentially a name, a face (if FaceGen is on), a height, weight, hometown and school. The rest is baseball-related info. So I'm curious how you'd have OOTP represent a transgender person when you can't necessarily tell gender from the info currently provided? Does the game add a gender column in the player bio?

Thank you so much for this contribution, you raise some good points. Data wise, I really don't have a good answer for you. It doesn't seem that Fangraphs or Baseball Reference have much data on this, so any representation of historical leagues I think would have to be more nominal than anything? I'm struggling to find stats for any leagues, but there does appear to be stats for the 2018 Women's Baseball World Cup on Baseball Reference. But yeah, definitely will be a struggle to find stats, if we have to auto-generate league history or start from scratch I'll take it nonetheless ^_^

Your second question is really good too. I imagine that putting gender in the player bio area would probably be really doable. Another thing would just be allowing female names to be given to players in, say, MLB leagues? Like, idk they could even have a story generate if they really want to be creative (Rockies OF so and so has announced that she is transgender today ... ). I mean, if we can have players losing their cats and running for the Senate, we can probably have this storyline lol. Probably limiting this to fictional players only is best, because I really don't want people to post for lolz about how Curt Schilling in their 93 Phillies game came out as trans or to offend irl players or novelize trans identities as a game rng feature.

I honestly imagine there's probably some gender non-conforming athletes in MLB and other baseball leagues, and maybe just maybe the inclusion of such athletes here might make them feel a little more comfortable and valid within the baseball universe. Also it can provide a rather safe and fun environment for people with non-conforming identities to roleplay as themselves or as others in-game which I would think would add to the accessibility of the game

Idk those are just my off the cuff thoughts, maybe other people have better solutions for these questions?

[mytreds]

Free speech is only free if you agree with it.

If there was a market for something like the OP desired, it would be out there. Developers are not going to cater to the less than 1%, as the profits gained would not overcome the money lost. Unless they really care about wokeness. But then you risk upsetting the 80% of consumers, who come to play simulators like this to escape that nonsense.

I encourage the OP to make a mod in order to include what the OP desires in the base game. Probably the easiest way until you find a developer who shares your concerns.

I’ll grab more popcorn and watch this thread quickly turn into the usual circle jerk.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by mytreds

Free speech is only free if you agree with it.

Free speech only concerns the government restricting your speech

Thank you, though, for letting us know right off the bat you don't know what you're talking about, lest anyone take you seriously.

you risk upsetting the 80% of consumers, who come to play simulators like this to escape that nonsense.

These people love to tell on themselves - "we play videogames because we can't deal with the real world where 'ciswomen, transfeminine, and non-binary' people exist"

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by mytreds

Free speech is only free if you agree with it.

If there was a market for something like the OP desired, it would be out there. Developers are not going to cater to the less than 1%, as the profits gained would not overcome the money lost. Unless they really care about wokeness. But then you risk upsetting the 80% of consumers, who come to play simulators like this to escape that nonsense.

I encourage the OP to make a mod in order to include what the OP desires in the base game. Probably the easiest way until you find a developer who shares your concerns.

I’ll grab more popcorn and watch this thread quickly turn into the usual circle jerk.

I'm a little surprised hearing this coming from a baseball fan, as market inefficiencies have been one of the most talked about features with baseball and is largely what inspired the sabermetrics revolution. Appealing to market forces in the abstract sounds nice, but the reality is that capitalism does not function in that abstract ideal in real life. There is always an intersection of ideal forces with one's effective self-interest that can lead to making inefficient or not-strictly supply/demand decisions in the economic sphere. Even so, in fact, capitalism's most characteristic quality isn't about meeting demand, but about creating demand through the production of new commodities, which in turn generates desire for them.

And I'm sorry, but why would the mere existence of playable women in OOTP upset you? I'm not saying that we need to mandate a woman bats clean-up for the Dodgers or whoever in your dynasty Functionally, there are versions of my request that you would literally never encounter in-game so I'm not sure I understand your harsh reaction unless you're personally against women playing baseball entirely IRL???

[MaeNekoChan]

oops duplicate sorry

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by MaeNekoChan

oops duplicate sorry

Regardless, you have already demonstrated the potential for being a force here. I hope you stick around.

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Regardless, you have already demonstrated the potential for being a force here. I hope you stick around.

Haha aw thank you, I appreciate it friendo

[Déjà Bru]

But I will stick to my original points of a game needing to be marketable to a mass audience in order to be viable, which mytreds echoed.

[Déjà Bru]

Now that we are past the "sexism" misunderstanding on my part (thanks again for clarifying that), I will lend my support to an enhanced female presence in this game. You must admit that the developers have certainly been inclusive of baseball as it is manifested in all the world's cultures; by no means is it ethnocentric to America. With this as a prelude, there is no reason not to feature more women in this game within the boundaries of realism.

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

But I will stick to my original points of a game needing to be marketable to a mass audience in order to be viable, which mytreds echoed.

This feels like a fair point but I would suggest that much that is already included in the game, not the least the various international professional baseball leagues, would suggest that what is marketable isn't necessarily what is widely considered popular. Adding another option to an already expansive game, at no expense to what already exists in the game, hardly seems to me like something that would make the game less marketable, but rather a step that would just enhance marketability all the more. My personal sense is that we may be underestimating the growth of baseball's fanbase among women and girls and that finding a way to have the game represent them more fully could be highly marketable indeed.
Not to mention for old cisgender men like myself who believe that the future of the sport will be more gender inclusive and who would love to have the option of having his fictional league evolve in this direction over time.

(Edit: And you sort of made that point yourself in a post that went up while I was typing this one. )

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

But I will stick to my original points of a game needing to be marketable to a mass audience in order to be viable

OOTP has proven marketable to a mass audience

If adding non-male players would make it less marketable that's
1) [redacted] pathetic
2) not a good argument for the "it's not misogynist" angle

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

there is no reason not to feature more women in this game within the boundaries of realism.

.

Originally Posted by BRyMcBourbon

I’m curious what custom leagues y’all are playing. I think it’s fun to hear what other people come up with.

I’m playing a league set in Tamriel from Elder Scrolls.

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

I'm telling the story of a league in a world I created. The pre-history stuff went quick and then I really slowed things down around 1830. I'm about ready to run 1860 soon. I created a google site for it and everything. I may share it on the forum one day.

Originally Posted by Lordofbrewtown

That said, I have a world based on Game of Thrones (more so the book version than HBO/TV version).

Originally Posted by The Game

A 24 team league and several planets from Star Wars, Corsuscant, Theed, Endor, kashyyyk, Tatooine & Corellia.

Originally Posted by Bliketa

I play a league set in an imaginary country I created before on a piece of paper.

Originally Posted by StLee

My league is Fallout 4's Commonwealth Baseball Organization.

[MaeNekoChan]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

OOTP has proven marketable to a mass audience

If adding non-male players would make it less marketable that's
1) [redacted] pathetic
2) not a good argument for the "it's not misogynist" angle

Yeah actually this second part is a really good point. If the game is absolutely incapable of being marketed effectively if it includes women or other genders, that would mean it by necessity exists essentially in a static system of sexism, which is to say the the True Substance of OOTP and baseball by extension is, analytically, sexist. Which I really don't think arguing that the Platonic Form of Baseball is sexist is something people on here probably intend to do

So uh, yeah, just a gentle warning about the logical consequences of taking a hard market-based position against women in baseball ... you're kind of obliquely making a very hard Critical Theory critique

To be clear, I don't think baseball or OOTP is sexist in that sense at all haha

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by MaeNekoChan

Yeah actually this second part is a really good point. If the game is absolutely incapable of being marketed effectively if it includes women or other genders, that would mean it by necessity exists essentially in a static system of sexism, which is to say the the True Substance of OOTP and baseball by extension is, analytically, sexist. Which I really don't think arguing that the Platonic Form of Baseball is sexist is something people on here probably intend to do

So uh, yeah, just a gentle warning about the logical consequences of taking a hard market-based position against women in baseball ... you're kind of obliquely making a very hard Critical Theory critique

You just lost everyone who was inadvertently making that argument

Speaking of:

To be clear, I don't think baseball or OOTP is sexist in that sense at all haha

I don't either

Just like I don't agree with the...poster...above who claims that 80% of people would be "upset" to the point of spending less on the game if non-males were added. Baseball leans conservative, but not THAT conservative.

Don't know if that was some Dunning-Kruger in action, or if they were just trying to make themselves feel better by pretending more people share their out-dated views than really do.

Either way, if the few people who were so upset by the addition of non-males to the game, quit buying the game I'd still consider it a net win were it my business.

[Déjà Bru]

One thing is for sure: The more that this company hears from people like MaeNekoChan, the more feasible this request becomes. I am sure that they know it works the other way as well; that is, the more inclusive the game is in this regard, the more they will hear from people like MaeNekoChan.

[sdw1000]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Wow.
Typical of a certain type of person to be like this.

I can only imagine this person's reaction if all the characters in the game were...not men.

WOW....we can see which side of the isle you stand on, buddy. I wouldn't play a game where it was woman..unless it was pro tennis.

[sdw1000]

Originally Posted by MaeNekoChan

So maybe we can redirect this topic a little so people with positive contributions feel a little more comfortable and welcome. I talked about some broad ideas in the OP, but I would love to hear what others think might be some good ideas for leagues, presentation, mechanics, &c. that might contribute to this cause. Especially welcome is anyone with a knowledge of the women's game who might be able to suggest ways for their playstyle or anything else to be included ^_^

You're the one that injected politics into the a BASEBALL GAME THREAD.

[Déjà Bru]

MaeNekoChan, seeing the above, this thread may be moved soon to Off Topic. You will be able to continue the discussion there by going to your User Control Panel, clicking Group Memberships, and selecting the option to join the Off Topic Forums group.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by sdw1000

WOW....we can see which side of the isle you stand on, buddy. I wouldn't play a game where it was woman..unless it was pro tennis.

Please explain what, exactly, you mean by this

Which side of the isle am I on?
And why would you only play a game as a female pro-tennis player?

I'm sure your responses will make you look fantastic.

Originally Posted by sdw1000

buddy

Also, based on your posts in this thread, I have zero desire to every have any friendly, nor even cordial, relationship with you.

Originally Posted by sdw1000

You're the one that injected politics into the a BASEBALL GAME THREAD.

Where?

I only see you injecting politics into it

I can only speculate as to why