Negro Leagues Have Been Elevated to Major League Status

[ALB123]

I just finished reading this article: https://ballparkdigest.com/2020/12/1...league-status/ - while all of the details haven't been worked out, it appears that MLB record books will be changed to reflect the accomplishments of Negro League star ballplayers.

I know this idea has been tossed around before, but it looks like it will now be official. It looks like OOTP might have some new tasks to complete in order to be ready for OOTP 22...

I don't personally know much about the Negro Leagues. I should. I love baseball and these leagues are a major part of baseball's history. From what little I do know, I am aware that Negro League baseball had some of the best baseball players to ever play the game. Maybe I'll finally get off my lazy butt and learn the history of these leagues and amazing players.

I know this has nothing to do with OOTP 21, but I feel like this is a pretty big announcement that most certainly will affect OOTP as the simulator software moves forward into the future. Besides incorporating statistics, records, and stadiums into the MLB historical database files, should we expect to see any other necessary changes to the base OOTP simulator?

Here is the full text of the article if any of you cannot reach the website I listed at the beginning of this post:

MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred today announced the elevation of the seven Negro Leagues to Major League status, continuing the game’s 2020 celebration of the creation of the Negro National League in 1920.

The action means a rewriting of baseball’s historical records. The statistics and records of the 3,400 Negro Leagues players in 1920-1948 will become a part of Major League Baseball’s history, pending further study. The initial data for these player records will come from the Seamheads Negro Leagues Database, with the Elias Sports Bureau also conducting additional research.

The designation comes after years of study and consultation with the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum and other baseball entities, according to an MLB press release.

“All of us who love baseball have long known that the Negro Leagues produced many of our game’s best players, innovations and triumphs against a backdrop of injustice,” Manfred said via press release. “We are now grateful to count the players of the Negro Leagues where they belong: as Major Leaguers within the official historical record.”

A main argument in past years against including Negro Leagues records in the Major League universe was that records were incomplete or inaccurate. But a new generation of baseball researchers overturned that assumption, discovering additional facts, statistics, and context that exceed the criteria used by the Special Committee on Baseball Records in 1969 to identify six “Major Leagues” since 1876. As a result, MLB and the Elias Sports Bureau have begun a review process to determine the full scope of this designation’s ramifications on statistics and records. MLB and Elias will work with historians and other experts in the field to evaluate the relevant issues and reach conclusions upon the completion of that process.

“It is MLB’s view that the Committee’s 1969 omission of the Negro Leagues from consideration was clearly an error that demands today’s designation,” according to today’s press statement.

“The perceived deficiencies of the Negro Leagues’ structure and scheduling were born of MLB’s exclusionary practices, and denying them Major League status has been a double penalty, much like that exacted of Hall of Fame candidates prior to Satchel Paige’s induction in 1971,” said John Thorn, the Official Historian of Major League Baseball. “Granting MLB status to the Negro Leagues a century after their founding is profoundly gratifying.”

“The Negro Leagues Baseball Museum is thrilled to see this well-deserved recognition of the Negro Leagues,” said Bob Kendrick, President of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City. “In the minds of baseball fans worldwide, this serves as historical validation for those who had been shunned from the Major Leagues and had the foresight and courage to create their own league that helped change the game and our country too. This acknowledgement is a meritorious nod to the courageous owners and players who helped build this exceptional enterprise and shines a welcomed spotlight on the immense talent that called the Negro Leagues home.”

For the record: the seven leagues that comprised the Negro Leagues of 1920-1948 were the Negro National League (I) (1920–1931); the Eastern Colored League (1923–1928); the American Negro League (1929); the East-West League (1932); the Negro Southern League (1932); the Negro National League (II) (1933–1948); and the Negro American League (1937–1948).

Does anyone have any thoughts on this subject as it relates to OOTP?

[Hoiles]

Ah you beat me to this by two minutes

I’d think updated status of the old Negro Leagues as an official “major” league should have a pretty big effect on historical leagues. Its players would get a boost in ratings from now being considered at the same level as the AL and NL (or at least the old Federal League), while the stats themselves could end up representing players more favourably with databases being more reliable. Also, we could have Negro players finally being in random debut leagues (my favourite historical league feature).

[Bluenoser]

Yes, it's being discussed in the Talk Sports Forum - https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=322670

[mitchkenn]

i saw this news on "Mad Dog Russo's" show this morning. Long long long overdue.
As far as OOTP, i'm hoping the database will no longer reflect them as AAA level players, or lower. i have no idea how the programing needs to change but here's to a huge hope for 2022 version correcting this issue. This is truly a great game and i hope the developers can correct the status of the Negro Leagues in the upcoming version. Here's to hope anyway.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by ALB123

Negro Leagues Have Been Elevated to Major League Status

Who is the MLB to "elevate" the Negro Leagues?

[TomVeal]

It's not clear to me how or why the reclassification of the Negro Major Leagues would affect players' ratings in OOTP. Nothing about the players or their abilities has changed. Aristotle said that even God can't alter the past. A fortiori, neither can Rob Manfred.

OOTP already, so far as I can discern, treats Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Martin Dihigo, Cool Papa Bell and their peers as the superstars that they were. Some of the lesser lights were also good and, if allowed to, could have competed in the white-only Majors. On the other hand, lots of Negro League players were scrubs, fillers and never-will-be's. They shouldn't be boosted just because they are now officially Major Leaguers.

[Hoiles]

Originally Posted by TomVeal

It's not clear to me how or why the reclassification of the Negro Major Leagues would affect players' ratings in OOTP. Nothing about the players or their abilities has changed. Aristotle said that even God can't alter the past. A fortiori, neither can Rob Manfred.

OOTP already, so far as I can discern, treats Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Martin Dihigo, Cool Papa Bell and their peers as the superstars that they were. Some of the lesser lights were also good and, if allowed to, could have competed in the white-only Majors. On the other hand, lots of Negro League players were scrubs, fillers and never-will-be's. They shouldn't be boosted just because they are now officially Major Leaguers.

From what I remember, the hitters such as Gibson and Charleston tend to be stars in OOTP, but pitchers like Paige and Smokey Joe Williams tend to be journeymen types. I haven't really played historical minors in this year's version though.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

i saw this news on "Mad Dog Russo's" show this morning. Long long long overdue.
As far as OOTP, i'm hoping the database will no longer reflect them as AAA level players, or lower. i have no idea how the programing needs to change but here's to a huge hope for 2022 version correcting this issue. This is truly a great game and i hope the developers can correct the status of the Negro Leagues in the upcoming version. Here's to hope anyway.

Hopefully 1. They are included in Random Debut and 2 dont import as scrubs. I have 9 former NLB players in my main league and 4 are retired because they import as scrubs, one of which is Buck O'Neil.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by TomVeal

It's not clear to me how or why the reclassification of the Negro Major Leagues would affect players' ratings in OOTP. Nothing about the players or their abilities has changed. Aristotle said that even God can't alter the past. A fortiori, neither can Rob Manfred.

OOTP already, so far as I can discern, treats Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Martin Dihigo, Cool Papa Bell and their peers as the superstars that they were. Some of the lesser lights were also good and, if allowed to, could have competed in the white-only Majors. On the other hand, lots of Negro League players were scrubs, fillers and never-will-be's. They shouldn't be boosted just because they are now officially Major Leaguers.

Yeah, I don't think the decision by MLB will have any effect on player ratings in OOTP. Those ratings are based on the stats, and the stats won't suddenly get more accurate and comprehensive just because the commissioner waved his magic wand to make over a century of discrimination disappear.

That said, I think OOTP's ratings tend to hurt Negro League players simply because those players almost always played fewer league games than their white counterparts. OOTP will adjust ratings downward for players who didn't appear in a minimum number of games. That way, the benchwarmer who hit .415 in 15 games doesn't automatically run away with your league's batting title. The problem with the Negro Leagues is that, for some seasons, there may only be stats for 20 or 30 league games. So OOTP dings all of their ratings. That's not something that will be changed by MLB's latest pronouncement. It may, however, be something that OOTP's design team might want to consider when it comes up with ratings for those players.

[Aceshigh24]

For those of you that have HBO Max, go check out the latest episode of Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel. They did a piece on this (1 Man was keeping all the records on his own spreadsheet in his basement) and it only seems fitting that after they released the episode that MLB is finally taking action on this.

[italyprof]

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

i saw this news on "Mad Dog Russo's" show this morning. Long long long overdue.
As far as OOTP, i'm hoping the database will no longer reflect them as AAA level players, or lower. i have no idea how the programing needs to change but here's to a huge hope for 2022 version correcting this issue. This is truly a great game and i hope the developers can correct the status of the Negro Leagues in the upcoming version. Here's to hope anyway.

Yes, some of us have been waiting for such changes in OOTP for years, and of course many, many people waited for MLB to finally correct its mistake, though some credit for finally getting it done. As someone who plays almost exclusively historical leagues, I admit I am really excited by prescisely these expected changes mitchkenn.

[italyprof]

Originally Posted by TomVeal

It's not clear to me how or why the reclassification of the Negro Major Leagues would affect players' ratings in OOTP. Nothing about the players or their abilities has changed. Aristotle said that even God can't alter the past. A fortiori, neither can Rob Manfred.

OOTP already, so far as I can discern, treats Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Martin Dihigo, Cool Papa Bell and their peers as the superstars that they were. Some of the lesser lights were also good and, if allowed to, could have competed in the white-only Majors. On the other hand, lots of Negro League players were scrubs, fillers and never-will-be's. They shouldn't be boosted just because they are now officially Major Leaguers.

Just as a .300 hitter in AA does not translate into a good player in the majors, whether someone's .300 average or 2.30 ERA is considered to have been at AA or in MLB makes all the difference for the ratings. The players and their talents have not changed. They were ALWAYS major league quality play, as the results of the early Negro Leaguers who joined MLB showed, but since their league was classified as a minor league, OOTP treated their stats as such, which was always an error, but one justified by MLB's classification. So an upgrade of their play in the game is very much in order.

[TomVeal]

Originally Posted by italyprof

Just as a .300 hitter in AA does not translate into a good player in the majors, whether someone's .300 average or 2.30 ERA is considered to have been at AA or in MLB makes all the difference for the ratings. The players and their talents have not changed. They were ALWAYS major league quality play, as the results of the early Negro Leaguers who joined MLB showed, but since their league was classified as a minor league, OOTP treated their stats as such, which was always an error, but one justified by MLB's classification. So an upgrade of their play in the game is very much in order.

While I have no special insight into OOTP's methodology in rating Negro League players, I quite sure that it's not as mechanical as you suggest.

No one disputes that the top tier of the Negro Leagues were as talented as the best players on the other side of the color line. OOTP's ratings are consistent with that. So far as I can see, Negro League stars are also stars in the OOTP Major League.

On the other hand, I seriously doubt (though I'm willing to be set right by evidence) that the overall quality of competition in the Negro Leagues equaled that of their white counterparts. If it didn't, an average NNL player is accurately rated below the average of MLB.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by TomVeal

On the other hand, I seriously doubt (though I'm willing to be set right by evidence) that the overall quality of competition in the Negro Leagues equaled that of their white counterparts. If it didn't, an average NNL player is accurately rated below the average of MLB.

I would agree with that. The Negro Leagues were probably comparable to the Nippon Pro Leagues of today, which most observers consider to be at a "AAAA" level. Of course, a big reason for that was because Blacks who might otherwise have considered a career in baseball were put off by the appalling conditions, abysmal pay, and lack of prestige that came with being a member of the Negro Leagues. As a result, league clubs didn't really have strong rosters from top to bottom, even though they had a total monopoly on Black talent. The good players were really good, and the not-so-good players were ... well, for the most part, they were forgettable and forgotten.

[italyprof]

Originally Posted by TomVeal

While I have no special insight into OOTP's methodology in rating Negro League players, I quite sure that it's not as mechanical as you suggest.

No one disputes that the top tier of the Negro Leagues were as talented as the best players on the other side of the color line. OOTP's ratings are consistent with that. So far as I can see, Negro League stars are also stars in the OOTP Major League.

On the other hand, I seriously doubt (though I'm willing to be set right by evidence) that the overall quality of competition in the Negro Leagues equaled that of their white counterparts. If it didn't, an average NNL player is accurately rated below the average of MLB.

First, 20% roughly of the white major leaguers did not belong there, since they were only there because better African American players were excluded from competing. This also has always inflated MLB statistics pre-1947. Second, MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL HAS JUST SAID THAT AT LEAST SOME OF THE LEAGUES AND SEASONS WERE OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED NOW AS MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. So what is the basis for your disagreeing with the MLB on this?

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I would agree with that. The Negro Leagues were probably comparable to the Nippon Pro Leagues of today, which most observers consider to be at a "AAAA" level. Of course, a big reason for that was because Blacks who might otherwise have considered a career in baseball were put off by the appalling conditions, abysmal pay, and lack of prestige that came with being a member of the Negro Leagues. As a result, league clubs didn't really have strong rosters from top to bottom, even though they had a total monopoly on Black talent. The good players were really good, and the not-so-good players were ... well, for the most part, they were forgettable and forgotten.

I get the logic here but I do think that the question still might be what the level of the white major leagues was at that point, comparatively speaking. Segregation did not just mean that there might have been players in the Negro Leagues who weren't at what we might call major league quality but also a great many white players on major league teams who probably shouldn't have been there and wouldn't have been had more talented black players been allowed to compete with them. I acknowledge that you are far more of an expert on the earlier days of professional baseball than I am, but I've always been under the impression that the gap between the most talented players and the least talented players in the major leagues in earlier (pre-integration) times was much wider than it has been for the past 50+ years.

Now this next bit is not meant as evidence of anything but merely a bit of anecdote that might or might not be considered relevant. My maternal grandfather, a lifelong passionate baseball fan, and other than my father the person who most influenced me in my own love of the game (possibly even more than my father, who was more of an athlete, whereas my grandfather was, like me, more a student of the game), used to go to watch barnstorming games where both negro leagues players and white professional baseball players competed. And my rural, very conservative, far from racially progressive, white grandfather said to me on more than one occasion before he died that the black players at that time were, on the whole, better baseball players than the white players. Now don't get me wrong, there are many reasons he might have said this and I am not suggesting that this is an objective truth. But it was a first-hand account and has some value as a result.

I think my larger point is that if there were (and surely there were) players in the Negro Leagues who were sub-par by what we would now consider major league standards, so too there were in the segregated white major leagues of that time, and this is more of an apples to apples comparison than we have been inclined to consider it in the past.

(There are a few points you made here that I think bear more examination than I am going to give them right now, as well, but let me suggest that you may be over-estimating the level to which potential professional baseball players who were black were discouraged from pursuing the sport. I would suggest that there were great rewards, relative to other opportunities offered young black men at that time, in playing for one of the top Negro Leagues teams, as well as great prestige, even if that prestige did not translate over to the dominant white culture of the time. And in many ways, in the early days of the major leagues, playing professional baseball might have earned a white player fame and adulation, and for some few relative riches, but it was also considered not really a suitable profession for anyone who came from a more affluent and/or well-educated background. So, again, in the context of the era, I think more apples to apples than you seem to suggest.
I realize there might also be an argument to be made that since the Negro Leagues were drawing from a smaller population pool- though let's not forget the dark-skinned players from places like Cuba who were also barred from the white major leagues and played in the Negro Leagues- but I would suggest that overall population is not always a great indicator of the level of excellence at the highest ends of a sport, and offer the Dominican Republic as a current example of a smaller population base providing a higher than might be expected percentage of top-end level baseball players.)

[Hoiles]

From what I remember, in older versions of OOTP there were Federal Leaguers like Dutch Zwilling who imported as Hall of Famers. However, in newer versions since the league was downgraded by MLB, the same players import as journeyman. That's what I anticipate that reverse will be true, with Negro Leaguers getting a boost. However, as mentioned, the aforementioned data quality and playing time issues may still cause some star Negro Leaguers to be underrated by OOTP's current db import algorithms.

[TomVeal]

Originally Posted by italyprof

First, 20% roughly of the white major leaguers did not belong there, since they were only there because better African American players were excluded from competing. This also has always inflated MLB statistics pre-1947. Second, MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL HAS JUST SAID THAT AT LEAST SOME OF THE LEAGUES AND SEASONS WERE OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED NOW AS MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL. So what is the basis for your disagreeing with the MLB on this?

1. In the period that we're discussing, about 400 men played in MLB. It may well be true that 80 of them were inferior to Negro League players. Do you believe that it follows that the average level of Negro League play was on a par with MLB?

2. I don't disagree with the statement that Major League Baseball has recognized some Negro Leagues as "Major Leagues". I do disagree with the proposition that this recognition resulted from a thorough analysis of the quality of those leagues' competition or that it should alter OOTP's methodology for evaluating Negro League players. Rating them is admittedly difficult owing to the lack of evidence. The MLB designation, however, has no evidentiary value at all and therefore is of no help in producing accurate assessments.

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by TomVeal

1. In the period that we're discussing, about 400 men played in MLB. It may well be true that 80 of them were inferior to Negro League players. Do you believe that it follows that the average level of Negro League play was on a par with MLB?

2. I don't disagree with the statement that Major League Baseball has recognized some Negro Leagues as "Major Leagues". I do disagree with the proposition that this recognition resulted from a thorough analysis of the quality of those leagues' competition or that it should alter OOTP's methodology for evaluating Negro League players. Rating them is admittedly difficult owing to the lack of evidence. The MLB designation, however, has no evidentiary value at all and therefore is of no help in producing accurate assessments.

The mere fact of MLB recognizing portions of the Negro Leagues as major leagues is not in itself evidence of much of anything other than the act itself. I can't argue with that.
However, the fact that MLB did this largely because of decades of baseball research and investigation that led to changing perceptions and understandings of baseball history is relevant. The official raising of the status is just the culmination of years of research and analysis and that is where the evidentiary value exists- in the substantial baseball scholarship that led to this change.

I would argue that there is far less evidentiary value in the previous official status of the Negro Leagues as somehow lesser than the white major leagues as it was based almost entirely upon simple prejudice and years of tradition rather than anything resulting from a fact-based exploration of the evidence at hand or any real attempt at scholarly examination.

[TomVeal]

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

The mere fact of MLB recognizing portions of the Negro Leagues as major leagues is not in itself evidence of much of anything other than the act itself. I can't argue with that.
However, the fact that MLB did this largely because of decades of baseball research and investigation that led to changing perceptions and understandings of baseball history is relevant. The official raising of the status is just the culmination of years of research and analysis and that is where the evidentiary value exists- in the substantial baseball scholarship that led to this change.

I would argue that there is far less evidentiary value in the previous official status of the Negro Leagues as somehow lesser than the white major leagues as it was based almost entirely upon simple prejudice and years of tradition rather than anything resulting from a fact-based exploration of the evidence at hand or any real attempt at scholarly examination.

Let's look at this question in a different way. In the period of the baseball color bar, the U.S. population was just about exactly ten percent black and a shade under 90 percent white. If baseball talent was evenly distributed by race and no other factors intervened, one would expect to find 40 black players with ability comparable to the 400 major leaguers of that era. For the average quality of the all-black major leagues to be equal that of their all-white counterparts, the former would have to be much smaller, or blacks would have to be inherently much better at playing baseball, or top-notch black players would have to be much more likely to play baseball professionally than top-notch white players.

In short, the hypothesis that the black and the white majors were equal as well as separate requires an explanation of a huge racial disparity, as well as an explanation of why that disparity vanished as soon as the color line was erased. That is a lot that must be explained in order to overcome the simpler hypothesis that the Negro Leagues, notwithstanding some superlative players, had to draw on a much smaller talent pool and were, as a consequence, weaker on the whole than the white leagues.