Historical pitcher without a fastball or sinker

[clamel]

I found many of these when starting in any 80s startup, even if I check the 90s.
In those cases I assume the setup see the splitter as a genuine fastball.
I really can't agree, a splitter in my book is an off-speed pitch.

My example here is Bob Tewksbury. In-game he gets a Curve, Slider and a Splitter. Looking in Neyer/James Guide to Pitcher he got a sinking fastball (low 80s), curve and slider.
Well a low 80s might not really be judged as a proper fastball, but maybe as a sinker Neyer/James mentioning that his fastball hardly cracked 85mph.

Still he is far from being alone.

The key is of course how the game handles pitchers without a "fastball". I understand the criteria to be a good starter is 3 pitches, maybe any kind of 3 pitches will do nicely.
If so my argument don't hold water. It's only a vision that the splitter is more and off-speed pitch and shouldn't be classified as a fastball.

The overal concern is still many pitcher that have no fastball. Rick Langford have none, just change-up, slider and screwball. I think the screwball is trying to picture his alleged spitball.

I hope that if no kind of fastball,sinker,cutter is in the DB when AI setup the pitchers it might hand out some kind of weak fastball, if it now do affect the game.

Basic question to you all playing historical. Are you doing any editing and adding any kind of fastball,cutter or sinker to these blokes. ???

[Brad K]

Interesting. I have Tewksbury at age 36 and checked. He has a curve, slider, and splitter.

To answer your question of editing, I take the players as provided. Before historical splits I would edit my players to splits based on career weighted by ABs, but other than that I do no editing. Even when I think the game is wrong.

[Charlie Hough]

A "splitter" is a split-finger fastball. That's the real name of the pitch, although it was known by some other informal names before it become more widely used in MLB. It is a fastball and definitely NOT an off-speed pitch. You can throw it with the same speed as a regular fastball, and many pitchers have thrown it that way. The whole point of the pitch is that it's a fastball where the bottom suddenly drops out as it reaches the plate.

You're seeing it prominently in the 1980s because that's when Roger Craig taught it to a lot of guys such as Jack Morris while Roger was a pitching coach. Many of the pitchers he coached went on to use the split-finger fastball as a primary fastball pitch, and it spread throughout both leagues.

[Garlon]

For any pitcher without a fastball in OOTP, please take a look at their BABIP against and compare it to the league BABIP. I think there may be a problem.

[fuzzy_patters]

Originally Posted by Garlon

For any pitcher without a fastball in OOTP, please take a look at their BABIP against and compare it to the league BABIP. I think there may be a problem.

What are you seeing? Is it higher or lower? I’m at the dentist and am intrigued enough that I can’t wait to check when I get home.

[Garlon]

Earl Wilson has a sinker, slider, and changeup and has a gb/fb tendency of neutral. I am going to look for more of these.

[ALB123]

The sinker is effectively a 2-seam fastball. For 99% of MLB pitchers, they'll say that the grip is the same. Pitcher's have such different arm angles which have an effect on how the ball behaves when thrown by Pitcher A and Pitcher B. Heck, even finger length often affects the action on a ball, or in the case of Mariano, the slight differences in finger pressure on the ball dictates how much movement the ball will have.

I've never fully understood how someone could throw a true MLB level Screwball. I've always expected to see the pitcher's arm explode into a million pieces or just fall off right there on the mound.

[clamel]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

A "splitter" is a split-finger fastball. That's the real name of the pitch, although it was known by some other informal names before it become more widely used in MLB. It is a fastball and definitely NOT an off-speed pitch. You can throw it with the same speed as a regular fastball, and many pitchers have thrown it that way. The whole point of the pitch is that it's a fastball where the bottom suddenly drops out as it reaches the plate.

You're seeing it prominently in the 1980s because that's when Roger Craig taught it to a lot of guys such as Jack Morris while Roger was a pitching coach. Many of the pitchers he coached went on to use the split-finger fastball as a primary fastball pitch, and it spread throughout both leagues.

I copy this from MLB.com

Splitter (FS)
Definition
A pitcher throws a splitter by gripping the ball with his two fingers "split" on opposite sides of the ball. When thrown with the effort of a fastball, the splitter will drop sharply as it nears home plate.

Splitters are often referred to as "split-finger fastballs," but because of their break and lower velocity, they don't hold much in common with a typical fastball. They're generally thrown in the same situations that would see a pitcher throw his breaking and off-speed pitches. A splitter is generally only slightly faster than a changeup.

Splitters are a relatively uncommon offspeed pitch, but they are still used with some prevalence.
""""""
So they think it's an uncommon off-speed pitch. I doubt a splitter gets up in high 90s, or would it ???

In my example with Tewksbury I can't see were the splitter came from. Neyer/James got a sinker, curve, slider. So that's what I reacted on. A sinker is definitly a fastball.
My edit will see if I change this splitter to a sinker and see how he performs, but guess it will be hard to know how much an edit will influence the game.

Mentioning Jack Morris I had a look. In 1986 he had a fastball,slider,change and forkball. That's in-game.
I think the pitches they get when inported in the year they start will stick, so if they developed a new pitch later on it will not pop-up. Hope I'm wrong.
But I have seen pitches on some pitcher in early 80s that in books telling this or that pitcher didn't develop until their last years some 10-12 years after.

I have always been thinking that types of pitches didn't play any role in-game, just how many types they have. At least 3 for a starter and that's it.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by clamel

The key is of course how the game handles pitchers without a "fastball". I understand the criteria to be a good starter is 3 pitches, maybe any kind of 3 pitches will do nicely.
If so my argument don't hold water. It's only a vision that the splitter is more and off-speed pitch and shouldn't be classified as a fastball.

Pitch types do matter in OOTP, although I'm not entirely sure how. For instance, I would guess that a pitcher whose best pitch is a fastball will yield more fly balls while a sinker pitcher would yield more ground balls.

I'm not sure if I'd categorize a splitter as a fastball. I think the motion is supposed to be the same as a fastball, but I've never seen a pitcher throw a splitter at 90+ mph with any consistency. Roger Craig made a big deal about the fact that the splitter was not a forkball, so maybe he called it a fastball just so people wouldn't think it was an off-speed pitch like the forkball.

Originally Posted by clamel

The overal concern is still many pitcher that have no fastball. Rick Langford have none, just change-up, slider and screwball. I think the screwball is trying to picture his alleged spitball.

I think you're correct. OOTP doesn't have a category for spitball, but in my experience pitchers who specialized in the spitball, such as Ed Walsh and Jack Chesbro, get a "screwball" instead from OOTP. I've also mentioned to the developers that I think this is wrong. From the accounts that I've read, the spitball reacted in much the same way as a splitter - it came at the batter like a fastball and then "dropped off the table." A screwball, in contrast, is just a reverse curveball.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by clamel

I copy this from MLB.com

Splitters are often referred to as "split-finger fastballs," but because of their break and lower velocity, they don't hold much in common with a typical fastball. They're generally thrown in the same situations that would see a pitcher throw his breaking and off-speed pitches. A splitter is generally only slightly faster than a changeup.

Sorry, I have to differ with MLB here. These days, a typical split-finger fastball is indeed thrown as more of an off-speed pitch, and it's thrown at around 87 to 88 mph. But pitchers aren't throwing it as hard as they can, or they don't have the skill to throw it harder and still control it and get the same results. But you can do this. Jack Morris often threw it so hard that it was probably in the low 90s on many occasions. It wasn't as fast as his normal fastball, but it still had some excellent velocity. In contrast, Bruce Sutter used it more like you see it used today, as more of an off-speed pitch. At any rate, it doesn't really matter because it all depends on how you define a "fastball" in the first place.

[clamel]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Pitch types do matter in OOTP, although I'm not entirely sure how. For instance, I would guess that a pitcher whose best pitch is a fastball will yield more fly balls while a sinker pitcher would yield more ground balls.

I still wonder about the effect of different pitches. By the look at many many pitcher I looked at during my 80-save got sinkers and then Extreme-Flyball pitchers. That makes me doubt. Can't remember the number now but very very few are "listed" as grounders in this save. The procentage is massively lower than if one have a look at the "fixed" start in 2020. Not sure if the program should have a formula that if the pitcher do have a sinker and maybe no fastball in his arsenal, at least the xtreme-fastball pitcher tag should be put down to perhaps neutral. Sure many will argue and I respect that. My opinion is that too many have no fastball/sinker and too few are groundball pither. Think OOTP only look at GB/FB and I'm not sure that stat was register back then. Baseball-reference got none what I can find.

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Jack Morris often threw it so hard that it was probably in the low 90s on many occasions. It wasn't as fast as his normal fastball, but it still had some excellent velocity. In contrast, Bruce Sutter used it more like you see it used today, as more of an off-speed pitch. At any rate, it doesn't really matter because it all depends on how you define a "fastball" in the first place.

Maybe one could say the 80s-90s popular Craig formula to throw splitters was followed later by the cutter. Even if I read Craig wasn't the "inventor" of the splitter. He is linked to it, perhaps as much as Rivera is with the cutter.
Problem, I think all agree on, is that a lot of pitches are called differently by everyone. It's not a clear thing what one call a piitch. The beauty of the game perhaps.
Bottom line is how OOTP handle the difference between these pitches. Some do have a very typical results and thrown in certain situation and I'm not convinced the game goes that far to handle that. At least not yet.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by clamel

Problem, I think all agree on, is that a lot of pitches are called differently by everyone. It's not a clear thing what one call a pitch. Bottom line is how OOTP handle the difference between these pitches.

I absolutely agree on both points. An 88-mph pitch was a fastball during the deadball era, and even though pitchers can throw much faster now, it's still a fast pitch compared to a changeup and a lot of curveballs or other breaking pitches. To me, that's what makes it a "fastball." But a lot of others would disagree because it's significantly slower than a straight fastball today.

Regardless, the real discussion here is about whether OOTP is simulating pitcher performance correctly when pitchers don't have a straight fastball in their repertoire.

[Argonaut]

Originally Posted by Garlon

For any pitcher without a fastball in OOTP, please take a look at their BABIP against and compare it to the league BABIP. I think there may be a problem.

Originally Posted by Garlon

Earl Wilson has a sinker, slider, and changeup and has a gb/fb tendency of neutral. I am going to look for more of these.

Hey Garlon, I've had a brief look at my historical save, and I don't see anything too crazy with BABIP. The BABIP leaders often tend to be from the same teams... either because of good defenses or accommodating ballparks. And of course the knucklers without a fastball have consistently good BABIP.

But you may be right that there's something to look at. Because knucklers with a fastball don't get their BABIP benefit, at least last time I checked.

[Garlon]

The Earl Wilson I posted did this in more than one game and I was using neutral park factors for all teams. He was the league leader in 9 out of his 10 seasons in BABIP by a wide margin. BABIP is more like .300 for the league and he was .211 for 10 seasons. Try going to your career leaderboard for pitchers and look at the H/9 and you may see some pitchers on that list such as Earl Wilson. Take a look at their pitch repertoire. I do not think any pitcher should import without a fastball as one of their pitches. Moreover, the effect of BABIP by knuckleballers is probably way too much as well. This is not affecting every pitcher without a fastball in their repertoire, but some are certainly putting up ridiculous results.

[clamel]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

I absolutely agree on both points. An 88-mph pitch was a fastball during the deadball era, and even though pitchers can throw much faster now, it's still a fast pitch compared to a changeup and a lot of curveballs or other breaking pitches. To me, that's what makes it a "fastball." But a lot of others would disagree because it's significantly slower than a straight fastball today.

Regardless, the real discussion here is about whether OOTP is simulating pitcher performance correctly when pitchers don't have a straight fastball in their repertoire.

I have always thought that OOTP could really have a go at the issue on how to deal with pitches if not all these small difference ones was mentioned.
A pitcher could have a fastball, breaking pitch, off-speed, then these odd ones like knuckler. The issue on "Was that a curve, slurve or slider" will go away. Even on the pitcher that got a couple of different curves,as we know. It gets down to basic. "He threw a breaking, or off-speed pitch". All kinds of fastball variants goes away then to.
OOTP could more easily program what will happen when these are thrown as type instead of clear cut named pitches.

Over the years I have had the feeling that OOTP have regarding the numbers on pitches and the quality off them as the only factors.
This is an area I hope will truly improve, if it hasn't already.
But it's hard to see and judge IMHO.
Only the devloper can answer with 100% certain call .

I think this goes into the start of the thread on OOTP AI in-game programming on types of pitches and how they are delt with by OOTPs AI-brain.

[joefromchicago]

An interesting discussion regarding pitch types can be found here.

[Donner]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

A "splitter" is a split-finger fastball. That's the real name of the pitch, although it was known by some other informal names before it become more widely used in MLB. It is a fastball and definitely NOT an off-speed pitch. You can throw it with the same speed as a regular fastball, and many pitchers have thrown it that way. The whole point of the pitch is that it's a fastball where the bottom suddenly drops out as it reaches the plate.

You're seeing it prominently in the 1980s because that's when Roger Craig taught it to a lot of guys such as Jack Morris while Roger was a pitching coach. Many of the pitchers he coached went on to use the split-finger fastball as a primary fastball pitch, and it spread throughout both leagues.

That's how my grandfather taught me to throw a fastball. I'm assuming you are describing the two-seam fastball that splits your fingers because you hold it with the seams under your fingers and it naturally splits your fingers as the seams widen.

That's what he threw a lot in high school and it seemed to work pretty good, especially against my grandmother's brothers (she had 7). Between his family and hers, they lacked two bodies for a 25 man roster. My grandmother can still throw the ball like a guy to this day. Not much "oomph" on it (She will be 101 next month) but it is that old familiar 3/4 delivery. My grandfather still had some oomph on his fastball in his 60's, he would go 3/4 to side arm depending upon who he was facing and where he "wanted the ball to go". Sadly, all those men are gone today. He always told me "put the bat on the ball, and wait for yer pitch, if he dud'n give ya nothin', take yer base.". I thought of him when I had drifted away from baseball, only to be brought back by college sweetheart in 2016, who played Earl Weaver Baseball with me on my PC in the early 90's.

Long story short, that's what I threw, even when my coaches would try and teach me "their way" of throwing a fastball. I never was good enough to get beyond junior varsity baseball, I just didn't have the arm or mechanics to get enough oophm, and when I played, it was pretty much an unwritten rule that you didn't teach young players to through curves, etc. because the theory was that they might suffer arm damage or wrist damage while their bodies were still developing, which either runined them for baseball or just hurt them over all, pick your poison. So it was fastballs and change-ups and spotting your pitches.

[Donner]

Originally Posted by clamel

I copy this from MLB.com

Splitter (FS)
Definition
A pitcher throws a splitter by gripping the ball with his two fingers "split" on opposite sides of the ball. When thrown with the effort of a fastball, the splitter will drop sharply as it nears home plate.

Splitters are often referred to as "split-finger fastballs," but because of their break and lower velocity, they don't hold much in common with a typical fastball. They're generally thrown in the same situations that would see a pitcher throw his breaking and off-speed pitches. A splitter is generally only slightly faster than a changeup.

Splitters are a relatively uncommon offspeed pitch, but they are still used with some prevalence.
""""""
So they think it's an uncommon off-speed pitch. I doubt a splitter gets up in high 90s, or would it ???

In my example with Tewksbury I can't see were the splitter came from. Neyer/James got a sinker, curve, slider. So that's what I reacted on. A sinker is definitly a fastball.
My edit will see if I change this splitter to a sinker and see how he performs, but guess it will be hard to know how much an edit will influence the game.

Mentioning Jack Morris I had a look. In 1986 he had a fastball,slider,change and forkball. That's in-game.
I think the pitches they get when inported in the year they start will stick, so if they developed a new pitch later on it will not pop-up. Hope I'm wrong.
But I have seen pitches on some pitcher in early 80s that in books telling this or that pitcher didn't develop until their last years some 10-12 years after.

I have always been thinking that types of pitches didn't play any role in-game, just how many types they have. At least 3 for a starter and that's it.

A good example of what you are saying is Tim Wakefield. He resurrected his career by throwing the knuckleball, which he learned from Phil Niekro. In-game, Wakefield is in the minors and if you look at his pitches (he is one of those "started as a position player [1b], couldn't hit, turned into a pitcher rarities) he does not have a knuckleball. Yet, his performance his rookie year for the Pirates as a late-season call-up is partly what got them into the playoffs and then into the series. He went on to pitch for the Red Sox for a dozen or more years, relying on the knuckleball a great deal of the time. Look at Wakefield in 1988.

[Brad K]

A fastball is a pitch thrown as hard as possible while maintaining decent control without any attempt to induce unnatural spin or lack of spin. So every pitcher has a fastball. But some of them its too bad to use much.

[Garlon]

There is something wrong with how pitchers without a FB are performing in the game. Their BABIP is way too low compared to their real BABIP and the league BABIP for their season. If all pitchers import with a FB this issue will probably be resolved.