Let me expound on something...

[HRBaker]

Let me start by saying I continue posting only because the OOTP folks seem to be open to our experiences and comments. I've been here a long time, and they always pay attention. On the other hand, I fully realize what we are playing here is their income, and PT has significantly improved that income, which would be a significant variable when considering changes.

That said; I really do think they traveled down a road this year that actually hurt the game.

PT19 and PT 20 both gave us (all of us) a platform that we could challenge ourselves in for many months, whether it be competition, card collecting, or tournaments. Opening packs, although like playing the Slots in Vegas, was the poorman's way of maybe landing a "Babe Ruth" or "King Kelly" that would finance a "franchise upgrade". After all, rich teams don't need to open packs - they have the money to buy what they want/need.

I said before that the cancellation of the MLB season - thus delaying the variation of Live cards, took away an interesting variable from the game. It very well might be that the OOTP team tried a bit too hard to make up that lost path by creating too many "super-cards". The game is slowly filling up the market with these cards, inflating the Auction House, and leaving us F2P folks out to dry.

In the previous 2 versions, a lucky pack-card was possible, and close attention to the AH could land a "deal". If you played tournaments you could land a little "side-PP" as well.

In the 6 level world, it was possible for F2P teams to reach the Gold/Diamond plateau before finding themselves struggling. Getting into Perfect was a lost cause.

In the 8 level world, with a severely limited population of Perfect teams, F2P teams find themselves forever bouncing around in the bottom 4 levels. And this happened within 4 months with no solution in sight.

In addition to the damage the "super-cards" have caused, I firmly believe the limited Perfect League population created a "bottleneck". In short, there's no place for all the Super-teams to go! They accumulate in Diamond and Gold, instigating the issue by pushing some decently good teams into Silver and below.

I'm NOT suggesting we do away with the pyramid. I think that was a significant improvement to the game...

But choking off the normal size of the Perfect league level forced very good teams into a lower level. Right now there are 40 teams in Perfect, and there could be as many as 500 more. The pyramid squeezed down to fast and far at the upper end.

Stop the production of "pretend cards" and widen the upper levels of the pyramid, and I think we would return to a more flexible Pro/Rel process.

One more thing. I mentioned this earlier too but it didn't gain much traction...

Waiting 8 weeks to fill the pyramid is, in my opinion, an unnecessary endeavor. In the very first week, all teams should be divided into 8 levels and play forward from there. This would immediately separate the whales from everyone else and even out the competition right away.

Ok, done. If your still here, thanks for reading.

[dkgo]

The complaint last year was that the pyramid was too wide so mediocre teams got vaulted to perfect anyway and were stuck against great teams. True.

Now its a problem that the mediocre teams are below the great teams? Why should those casual f2p teams be any higher than silver?

[Caedus]

I don't know what you're talking about, all my teams made the PLs in 20 and two of them won championships while making the playoffs pretty much every year since this time last summer. And I didn't get this from spending money either. Far from perfect being a "lost" cause. And none of them were played optimally either, they were primarily pack drawing teams that got augmented by some lucky pulls (and if you draw primarily packs, you will get lucky pulls eventually) and collections.

In 21, even though I tried to keep my teams in the lower levels, they've all made it to Gold, two of them have made it to Diamond, and one of them has made the playoffs in Diamond. Not a dime spent on any team. It's not hard at all for a F2P team to make a Gold playoff bound team.

It's nice that it takes more than just playing a long time to get a PL win. And winning this years equivalent of a PL (Diamond), will feel like more of an accomplishment.

Attached are my three F2P teams that have been built entirely with packs and collections (LIVE and historical ones that packs have pushed me towards).

[Ty Cobb]

Don't you have anything else to do besides demeaning 85% of the games players?

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Don't you have anything else to do besides demeaning 85% of the games players?

Huh? Exactly how did I do that?

[Ty Cobb]

Not you...

[Ty Cobb]

I agree with you. I was speaking to Mr. “filthy peasants below gold level don’t matter.”

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Caedus

I don't know what you're talking about, all my teams made the PLs in 20 and two of them won championships while making the playoffs pretty much every year since this time last summer.

And I'm happy for you, but don't let your success make you lose sight of the fact you are the exception.

A) 84% of all PT21 players (21,000+) are in the bottom 4 levels. That's about 17,640 teams.

B) 16% of all PT21 players are in the top 4 levels. That's about 3,400 teams.

C) 3% of all PT21 players are in the top 2 levels. That's about 600 teams.

It's reasonable to conclude that the huge majority of F2P teams have not gotten above Iron or Bronze - nor will they.

The question comes down to this... is it better to reach your limit after 4 months of play and quit playing till next year, or is it better to reach the higher levels and find yourself significantly outclassed. I think this is the dilemma the OOTP folks have to address. Maybe from a business standpoint, there is no answer that won't decrease profits. If that's the answer, then so be it - but I would rather believe there is a tweak or two here and there that can make it more competitive for the 84% without damaging their income source.

[Torgonius]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

It's reasonable to conclude that the huge majority of F2P teams have not gotten above Iron or Bronze - nor will they.

How many of those teams are abandoned?
How many of those teams are actively managed by people who don't spend money (for whatever reason?)
How many of those teams are actively managed by people who don't spend time pursuing alternate means of PP generation?

Of the teams remaining in that subset that are actively managed by people not paying extra $$, and who are actively working to generate PP via alternate means... How many of them never get above bronze?

My guess is 0.000%

Why should anyone who doesn't put in the time or money deserve to do as well as people who do?

[QuantaCondor]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

In the previous 2 versions, a lucky pack-card was possible, and close attention to the AH could land a "deal". If you played tournaments you could land a little "side-PP" as well.

All these things are still true. Big cards get pulled. The top tourney players make a killing. AH working is incredibly lucrative if you know what to look for.

Originally Posted by HRBaker

In the 6 level world, it was possible for F2P teams to reach the Gold/Diamond plateau before finding themselves struggling. Getting into Perfect was a lost cause.

Absolutely false. Between my PT20 team and 2 other F2Ps I know, we have 24 Perfect WS titles in PT20.

Originally Posted by HRBaker

In the 8 level world, with a severely limited population of Perfect teams, F2P teams find themselves forever bouncing around in the bottom 4 levels. And this happened within 4 months with no solution in sight.

Every single time these threads get created, the response is always "There isn't a limit to F2P, you just have to put in the time." I have personally won 2 diamond titles in PT21 as a F2P in BFF, already have nearly full coverage for all the existing and upcoming FotF sets, and I don't even think I have the best team among F2P players.

To be successful, you have to either put in time or money (or maybe get a little lucky). Those are your options. If you don't put in time (spend grinding tourneys or doing AH stuff or collections or whatever), or put in money, you will always be caught up with all the other no-money-no-time players doing the same thing, and passed up by the players that put in the resources. No structure, no ladder, nothing will change that reality.

[Marleigh]

PT21 started out with top players having inflated ratings compared to 20, this has then been added to with subsequent releases. This makes the gap between the top teams and ''average'' teams far larger than in 20

This also makes certain cards far less useful, live cards could contribute at even perfect level last year, this year above silver they are trash tier. So 66% of your card pulls are worthless as player upgrades if you want to reach gold, and only the iron/bronze/silver are useful as mission cards (with the occasional gold) My main PT20 team used soroka a lot at PL (until his ratings got shafted by a live update) and Dj LeMahieu was a cheap backup option etc etc. So one avenue for cheap cards has disappeared.

SE cards being part of tournaments rather than in missions (the team missions for example) has meant they are rarer and therefore more expensive, the backbone of my teams PL title was SE Bob Lemon and SE Colavito who were relatively inexpensive but performed well (both were sub 30k), this year the high diamond tournament SEs sell for 100k+.

Colavito also highlights another issue his contact of 80 and avoid Ks of 34 would make him unuseable this year, but in 20 he is at around 6900 games in PL with a .267/.355/.452 slash line and 5 WAR per 162 games despite his 180ks per season. That type of player just can't be used above Gold this year.

Gold cards have become worse relative to the hyper inflated players making them almost useless in the current game other than tournaments (but the top players for tournaments have had their prices pumped up so even they aren't cheap options unlike someone like Hugh Duffy who in 20 could be had for around 10k and performed like a high diamond even at Perfect Level)

Not all cards were used in missions in 20 meaning there were still cheap diamonds available.

What this all means is that you have everyone who wants to compete at high levels also competing for exactly the same type of cards on the auction house as there are no real options to build your team other than high contact/avoid k and stellar defence. Combined with the ease of getting the live SE cards this has all created a weird meta with most people at gold/silver having variations of a theme, the theme being live SE cards.

Creativity in building teams that are capable of playing at Gold or above has been stunted, making the game less fun for many, yet if you don't conform you are unlikely to advance.

I'm not saying PT20 was perfect (a lot of the missions in particular were awful) but it was definitely more fun for casual players, I guess they will make more money this year as they are catering to a very different crowd, but they need to be careful because the casual players still add to the game.

[OMGPuppies]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

In the 6 level world, it was possible for F2P teams to reach the Gold/Diamond plateau before finding themselves struggling. Getting into Perfect was a lost cause.

Agree 100%

[deejqu1k]

Sorry losers. I spent exactly zero dollars and will likely bust into Perfect sometime in the next few weeks. There are a couple different ways a non-whale can make the top league. I suggest you study what works.

[QuantaCondor]

Originally Posted by deejqu1k

Sorry losers. I spent exactly zero dollars and will likely bust into Perfect sometime in the next few weeks. There are a couple different ways a non-whale can make the top league. I suggest you study what works.

I agree with the message but disagree with the tone. Why bring that?

[eldur00]

I agree waiting a few months for things to fall into place always felt like a broken system to me.
But I disagree that things are too hard for FTP players. That's what we whined for. To me, the pyramid is fine and there should only be one true top league, and go from there.
The issue is not about how hard it is to make it to Perfect, but for people to adjust their expectations about where they can realistically take their team. So what if I bounce between Bronze and Silver ? My team has no business being higher than that anyway...
It's not like I would win anything more than bragging rights to win in higher leagues anyway, so who cares.

[Marleigh]

Originally Posted by QuantaCondor

All these things are still true. Big cards get pulled. The top tourney players make a killing. AH working is incredibly lucrative if you know what to look for.



Absolutely false. Between my PT20 team and 2 other F2Ps I know, we have 24 Perfect WS titles in PT20.



Every single time these threads get created, the response is always "There isn't a limit to F2P, you just have to put in the time." I have personally won 2 diamond titles in PT21 as a F2P in BFF, already have nearly full coverage for all the existing and upcoming FotF sets, and I don't even think I have the best team among F2P players.

To be successful, you have to either put in time or money (or maybe get a little lucky). Those are your options. If you don't put in time (spend grinding tourneys or doing AH stuff or collections or whatever), or put in money, you will always be caught up with all the other no-money-no-time players doing the same thing, and passed up by the players that put in the resources. No structure, no ladder, nothing will change that reality.

Obviously this was made into a F2P vs P2P player argument but the reality is it is a haves (regardless of how much they have spent) vs the have nots (again regardless of how much they have spent). The top tier teams (the haves) are way more powerful than they were at any time last year compared to ''average'' teams. I don't care how much people have spent but the disparity between teams that put in huge amounts of time/money and knowledge is far greater than previous years, it's nice for those teams to get the rewards that they want but it skews everything else from a casual point of view, Diamond is far harder than Perfect was last year, Gold feels more like last years perfect tbh. The problem is that you CAN spend little time or money and be thrust into diamond league a little too easily, I think they need more gold leagues and to make the promotions to diamond tougher

i have no idea where the notion that it's impossible to get to diamond as a F2P in 21 comes from, I've taken 4 teams to Diamond so far with 3 being F2P, the difficulty is in staying there imo, whereas there was no difficulty in staying in Perfect last year (which was a bad thing imo)

[Orcin]

The pyramid is a big improvement over the PT20 system. There's nothing wrong with a large portion of the active player base settling into Gold/Silver leagues. Anyone that uses SE players can get there. I don't think it makes sense to set up the game to enable teams with self-imposed handicaps, i.e. theme teams, to succeed over teams that set winning as their primary goal.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by Orcin

The pyramid is a big improvement over the PT20 system. There's nothing wrong with a large portion of the active player base settling into Gold/Silver leagues. Anyone that uses SE players can get there. I don't think it makes sense to set up the game to enable teams with self-imposed handicaps, i.e. theme teams, to succeed over teams that set winning as their primary goal.

All true.

It's important to frame the discussion correctly. When people talk about the "F2P" experience what they really mean is the casual player. Which is fine, most people are going to be casual players. But by labeling it F2P you are always going to end up in the same debate about how teams can be just as successful by spending time instead of money. There are teams that didn't buy points with 10+ perfect championships in 20, but was investing the number of hours that took really "free?"

What matters is the casual vs heavily engaged balance. And as said above, with more and more super cards being released that gap is getting bigger. Last year you could be reasonably competitive in perfect with a cheap lefty contact lineup with cards like SE Dykstra leading your team.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Torgonius

Why should anyone who doesn't put in the time or money deserve to do as well as people who do?

Originally Posted by QuantaCondor

To be successful, you have to either put in time or money (or maybe get a little lucky). Those are your options. If you don't put in time (spend grinding tourneys or doing AH stuff or collections or whatever), or put in money, you will always be caught up with all the other no-money-no-time players doing the same thing, and passed up by the players that put in the resources.

Originally Posted by deejqu1k

Sorry losers.

Some of you folks totally missed my point entirely, and the 3rd comment is acidic. NO ONE here, including myself, is expecting to be Perfect/Diamond successful without effort. Go back and read my original post. Better yet, let me summarize it here...

1) Too many "super-cards" have been published in PT21
2) These "super-cards" are the specific targets for whales
3) The price of the "super-cards" AND(!!!) the price of the lower cards needed to collect the "super-cards" have gone through the roof.
4) This price increase has gotten so high that most casual players cannot possibly earn enough PP to obtain these cards - thus there is a ceiling as to how far a casual team can go without quitting his job and sitting in front of his/her computer 8 hours a day.

Suggesting 85% of the player base to "go find something else to do" is a level of ego that I'd rather not deal with, and it's also a terrible business model.

I would prefer to think that the OOTP developers are more open to casual players and will try to adjust the game for them to make it more engaging.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I don't think it makes sense to set up the game to enable teams with self-imposed handicaps, i.e. theme teams, to succeed over teams that set winning as their primary goal.

Agreed. i started out that way this year and severly limited myself. Problem was, by the time I realized theme teams was a lost cause, the "super-cards" had already driven the AH to astronomical highs.