Idea for PT22 - Separate Leagues for F2P/P2W

[Orcin]

The market manipulation is a far bigger problem in the game than people spending money. People spending money open lots of packs that provide supply for the AH so others can build teams without investing their hard-earned points in a game of chance. Market manipulators, many of whom are free-to-play, make their points by taking yours in a zero-sum game.

[DonMattingly]

The closest I can imagine they'll get to this is giving the option of using the previous season's PT cards in single player leagues. Then online leagues using those cards (and similar rules to PT - no aging, salaries, etc) can basically be F2P PT leagues on a small scale.

[Marleigh]

Originally Posted by spreznym530

In this thread: somebody honestly and kindly presents an idea. Other users show up and find many different ways to scold him and call him stupid.

Why tf must he be subjected to ridicule? It’s easy to explain why it’s not feasible without being a dick. He’s just spitballing, doing nobody any harm. Utterly miserable people.

No one is ridiculing anyone, people are just stating its an incredibly bad idea, telling someone their idea is stupid isn't the same as calling someone stupid you know. People need to grow thicker skin if they think this is being ridiculed.

[Marleigh]

Originally Posted by Orcin

The market manipulation is a far bigger problem in the game than people spending money. People spending money open lots of packs that provide supply for the AH so others can build teams without investing their hard-earned points in a game of chance. Market manipulators, many of whom are free-to-play, make their points by taking yours in a zero-sum game.

The problem is that the market manipulation probably favours OOTP as higher prices mean more PP sales. I don't expect them to do anything about it, its clear they know exactly what they are doing when they include the same cards repeatedly in missions

[Spieler]

Originally Posted by Orcin

The market manipulation is a far bigger problem in the game than people spending money. People spending money open lots of packs that provide supply for the AH so others can build teams without investing their hard-earned points in a game of chance. Market manipulators, many of whom are free-to-play, make their points by taking yours in a zero-sum game.

Well put.

So is the answer as simple as not being able to buy a card on the AH that you already own? Would still allow some "card flipping", just one of a card at a time and not hoarding/cornering multiple copies of the same card. Sell a card, and you can buy exactly one more. Sell it, buy one more and so on.

And doesn't affect those ripping multiples from packs. You should have some advantage for opening packs in volume. If you rip 12 Connor Joes or Walter Johnsons, have at it, feel free to set the market.

More I think about it, this could be a good thing. Need to let it marinate for a bit.

[dkgo]

Is there really anyone sitting on significant copies of a single card? Seems like just an issue of everyone needing the same card when supply is low to begin with.

Would be terrible if that rule applied to live cards.

[Spieler]

Originally Posted by dkgo

Is there really anyone sitting on significant copies of a single card? Seems like just an issue of everyone needing the same card when supply is low to begin with.

I guess that is the question. Is it really the market being manipulated or just supply-and-demand?

Originally Posted by dkgo

Would be terrible if that rule applied to live cards.

In principle, what difference does it make? OK, I guess people buying 5 copies of a single Live Gold card aren't looking to flip them on the AH, but rather hope they get bumped to Diamond in order to quick-sell them. Which removes them from the market.

So maybe only it only applies to Historical cards and not Live cards.

[Westheim]

Live silvers are reasonably rare and often very few are available; a single guy can totally shorten the supply of specific silver cards.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Orcin

The market manipulation is a far bigger problem in the game than people spending money. People spending money open lots of packs that provide supply for the AH so others can build teams without investing their hard-earned points in a game of chance. Market manipulators, many of whom are free-to-play, make their points by taking yours in a zero-sum game.

Nailed it.

Not that I blame the flippers. That's how a free market is supposed to work. If the profit incentive is there, it's going to happen.

It's about the incentives. Risk and reward. Speculators have to make a decision and it's based primarily on the structure of the collections. A structure where the goal is "Collect every historical card for every team" just removes all the risk from the equation. All a hoarder has to do is keep their portfolio sufficiently diversified, and their profits are guaranteed. One FOTF reward card may be bad, so the small investor could be wiped out with a bad bet on the wrong team. But it's a guarantee that SOME of them will be OP, worth hundreds of thousands of PP. Surely, the toppers will be as well, and you NEED every team for those. So the card-hoarding class who already owns all the assets is 100% guaranteed to be the chief beneficiary under this structure.

Like in real life, it's a problem when the rules governing society are slanted too far in the direction of benefiting the rich.

Eventually it comes back to hurt the rich as well, when the poor reach a breaking point and stop playing the game entirely. Like the homeless drug addict who isn't contributing to the economy anymore. They saw the rules presented to them, deduced the game was rigged, and gave up entirely.

No one wants homeless people, and no one wants the users to quit PT. But if we don't address the underlying structural issues then both are inevitable.

Sorry if the analogy seems a little over the top. I just couldn't think of a better one.

[Spieler]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Live silvers are reasonably rare and often very few are available; a single guy can totally shorten the supply of specific silver cards.

OK, thanks. I don't really mess with Live cards, so wasn't aware of this.

[dkgo]

Exactly right that there is no risk when every card always gets used. Even if it doesnt become a bottleneck you get your investment back at worst. Add some downside the the equation.

Id expect there are very few instances of a person actually controlling the whole market for a card. People just seem to expect to be able to log on once a day and find all the pieces they need for a 400K card sitting there for 100K total. That isnt going to happen.

[Spieler]

Hard to judge from the outside looking in. PP are being generated and added to the economy every week. It takes new players/teams to keep demand up. If at this instant, not a single new team was added, the prices would come down, probably rather quickly as demand dries up. As long as demand is constant, the prices will stay constant.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by dkgo

People just seem to expect to be able to log on once a day and find all the pieces they need for a 400K card sitting there for 100K total. That isnt going to happen.

No, that's not what I expect. If there are six copies of a given card listed, I expect to see a cascade of prices - not all six priced within a few points of each other, and all of them at L7 +35%. The manipulation is obvious.

[Marleigh]

Originally Posted by Orcin

No, that's not what I expect. If there are six copies of a given card listed, I expect to see a cascade of prices - not all six priced within a few points of each other, and all of them at L7 +35%. The manipulation is obvious.

Yep you only have to look at some of the live SEs and see what's happened over the course of the last few weeks to realize market manipulation exists

[QuantaCondor]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Nailed it.

Not that I blame the flippers. That's how a free market is supposed to work. If the profit incentive is there, it's going to happen.

It's about the incentives. Risk and reward. Speculators have to make a decision and it's based primarily on the structure of the collections. A structure where the goal is "Collect every historical card for every team" just removes all the risk from the equation. All a hoarder has to do is keep their portfolio sufficiently diversified, and their profits are guaranteed. One FOTF reward card may be bad, so the small investor could be wiped out with a bad bet on the wrong team. But it's a guarantee that SOME of them will be OP, worth hundreds of thousands of PP. Surely, the toppers will be as well, and you NEED every team for those. So the card-hoarding class who already owns all the assets is 100% guaranteed to be the chief beneficiary under this structure.

Like in real life, it's a problem when the rules governing society are slanted too far in the direction of benefiting the rich.

Eventually it comes back to hurt the rich as well, when the poor reach a breaking point and stop playing the game entirely. Like the homeless drug addict who isn't contributing to the economy anymore. They saw the rules presented to them, deduced the game was rigged, and gave up entirely.

No one wants homeless people, and no one wants the users to quit PT. But if we don't address the underlying structural issues then both are inevitable.

Sorry if the analogy seems a little over the top. I just couldn't think of a better one.

I don't think this harms only the poor player. As someone who has done a lot of speculation, I don't like the effect it has on my team. It totally destroys any other source of income as being relevant; it's all about the speculation since the payoffs are enormous and the content has been really easy to predict. And ultimately, very few of us, even the speculation power users, come to PT to wanting to play a market game.

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by Cowboys3356

I am sure this idea has holes and needs some flushing out but here is the basic idea that I think will address a large number of the frustrations that many users currently have with PT21.

For PT22 there would be two leagues:

Free to Play (f2p): users that spend ZERO dollars after initial purchase
Pay to Win (p2w): users that spend $1 or more after initial purchase
~would only apply to League play, tournaments remain unchanged for now

We could call it something else to be more PC but for now this is the easiest way to describe it.

So everyone on Day 1 starts as f2p status but as soon as a user spends any money (doesnt matter if it is $1 or $10k) their status changes to p2w.

For league play all users are grouped together by their status. The tier system of Stone/Iron/Bronze/Silver/etc etc all the way to PL remains the same but now two separate groupings exist. So there would be a f2p Perfect League and a p2w Perfect League.

I assume it is possible for the devs to create something that would automatically change a user's status if they buy PP. If the game doesn't currently track this behind the scenes then I would think it is very doable.

The game experience for p2w would remain the same as now with no changes in when they could buy PP.

The main difference for the f2p user would be they could ONLY buy PP (thus changing their status to p2w) on Sundays before league selection runs. This would be to prevent an exploit such as a person being assigned to a f2p league and then spending a bunch of money to buy players and win the league. Sure they would be bumped over to p2w the next week but for the week they were in f2p it would ruin the experience for everyone else.

Now this does not entirely level the playing field but it helps. In p2w you will still have big team differences because someone spending $100 probably wont have the same level of team as someone spending $10k. And in f2p you would still have differences because a person playing 10 hours a day flipping cards on the AH, running tournaments constantly, etc is going to have an edge over a casual player who checks in once a week. But at least now on the f2p side the difference in teams is created by time invested and skill, not financial dominance.

I am sure people can pick this apart and still find reasons to complain about the structure and the devs might say it is too much work but i think instead of complaining we need to explore ideas like this that could add value to the game and make it better, not just tear it down with negativity.

Ok that's all I got, hopefully some people smarter than me can find a way to make something like this work and bring some joy back to the long time players who seem to be a bit lost out there right now. Good luck!

THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THINGS "FAIR" IS SIMPLE....You either play PT or Not. PT & OOTP are 2 totally different things. OOTP makes initial money by just the purchase of game...PT brings in $$$ which companies are supposed to do. Capitalism is the only way to go

And yes..The idea had more holes than a screen door

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Bunktown Ballers

THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THINGS "FAIR" IS SIMPLE....You either play PT or Not.

But what if he can't resist the urge to play PT?

[JeffersonJim]

OOTP built market speculation into PT from the beginning. But unchecked market speculation, as a result, I don't believe was what they were hoping for. I don't think they designed for all the mission lockdown for many cards, lack of diversity of SE Live Mission teams, and the current spat of vocal FTP players response to the ongoing content. Most of which was in 20 as well. I really like watching Rich's twitch streams when he sees how inflated prices are as he does missions, but I wish he would do some outside the Live missions. He does see what we see on occasion. I am sure Kris and Rich hear about it all the time, and if you don't voice it to them directly, then you should just be constructive and courteous.

What to do? No matter the changes, everyone will get salty, but I think there may be some "Fed"-like OOTP moves that might help.

My take is to implement Price Ceilings in the AH. We already have Price Floors. Ceilings might stop a lot of very rampant speculation and tankers (both of which are generally considered bad for the game or against TOS). Make the Ceiling based on the Last 7 data, All-Time, Some combo, or a new Factor. If you list the card with no more than a 10% markup of Last 7, it is fine. Beyond that you can still list it, but the card in now locked in the Auction House until it sells for that "inflated" price. The Ceiling would move throughout the game cycle, which may include the "inflated" data or not. Tankers who list their cards to hide them either have to leave them there or folks will be much more likely to buy them. Whales can still buy cards no matter the prices. Maybe the OOTP tax should be much higher on "inflated sales".

I don't think it should matter how many of a particular card you have or want to sell. Flipping should be allowed and encouraged, just not excessive gouging.

Another problem might be the extraordinary prices of new cards with no established Last 7 or All-time data. I an unsure how to establish new prices. This is a Mixed Economic System not Capitalism. More controls are needed.

Originally Posted by Orcin

The market manipulation is a far bigger problem in the game than people spending money. People spending money open lots of packs that provide supply for the AH so others can build teams without investing their hard-earned points in a game of chance. Market manipulators, many of whom are free-to-play, make their points by taking yours in a zero-sum game.

Originally Posted by chazzycat

Speculators have to make a decision and it's based primarily on the structure of the collections. A structure where the goal is "Collect every historical card for every team" just removes all the risk from the equation. All a hoarder has to do is keep their portfolio sufficiently diversified, and their profits are guaranteed. One FOTF reward card may be bad, so the small investor could be wiped out with a bad bet on the wrong team. But it's a guarantee that SOME of them will be OP, worth hundreds of thousands of PP. Surely, the toppers will be as well, and you NEED every team for those. So the card-hoarding class who already owns all the assets is 100% guaranteed to be the chief beneficiary under this structure. Like in real life, it's a problem when the rules governing society are slanted too far in the direction of benefiting the rich. Eventually it comes back to hurt the rich as well, when the poor reach a breaking point and stop playing the game entirely.

[dkgo]

Introducing a price ceiling to combat the problem of limited supply is the opposite of all economic theory.

Ultimate Team has them. All that happens is highly demanded cards go completely extinct instead of being available in limited amounts.

[Torgonius]

I have a 95 Trout to move. Why should I not be allowed to list it for whatever price I want, regardless of the price for which it sold recently? If there's a demand for it at my chosen price, great. If not, I'm going to need to relist in a day or 2. No one is entitled to that card for the price they want to pay. They either meet my price, they buy from someone selling for less, they wait for someone to list it for less, or they don't get that card.

I'm not a motivated seller. I can afford to wait for someone to pay my price. You have the option to buy it, or not. No one is forcing you to pay my price.

Because if that's not the case, then I demand someone put a 91 Matlack on the AH right this very second for 4k. Sounds pretty silly, right?