CERA in PT 21

DonMattingly · 06-02-2020, 09:44 PM

I noticed in PT 19, catcher defense had a pretty large effect on the performance of the pitchers. And that mostly went away in PT 20.

Has anyone studied how much effect catchers have in PT 21, ie how much difference is there in CERA between varying skill levels in catching defense?

ubernoob · 06-02-2020, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

I noticed in PT 19, catcher defense had a pretty large effect on the performance of the pitchers. And that mostly went away in PT 20.

Has anyone studied how much effect catchers have in PT 21, ie how much difference is there in CERA between varying skill levels in catching defense?

Plenty of it was done earlier, and numbers got tweaked because of it (making catcher defense more important, iirc.)

Now *how* important it is these days after the tweaks and everything... I'm not sure. You'll have to dig around more for that to see.

bailey · 06-03-2020, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

I noticed in PT 19, catcher defense had a pretty large effect on the performance of the pitchers. And that mostly went away in PT 20.

Has anyone studied how much effect catchers have in PT 21, ie how much difference is there in CERA between varying skill levels in catching defense?

I noticed a big difference in PT20 with catcher ability. When I used a catcher with high ability, my pitchers painted the corner dramatically more than when I used a catcher with much lower ability. This was using high powered pitchers in a low league level. As I advanced in levels the effect disappeared.

In PT21, I used a catcher with high ability (Yasmani Grandal) only in 9th inning save situations for Joe Nathan the closer. Nathan won reliever of the year 3 straight seasons. Again, these were low levels and Nathan eventually became ineffective.

As far as "studying" the effect, how would you go about doing that without a supercomputer?

X3NEIZE · 06-03-2020, 12:32 AM

In OOTP20 catcher defense had zero influence over the game.... I used Kelly King for ever and was almost always the top defending team..... It was broken.

In OOTP21 even though there's been a patch to address framing, I really cannot tell the difference. Of course we need a data dump to make a fair conclusion...

thejojo · 06-03-2020, 02:14 AM

I had a Jason Kendall who had a CERA of 6.11 and my pitchers didn't perform well.

KleineBiere · 06-03-2020, 09:09 AM

CERA is the wrong metric. But let's have a look at some rookie level numbers.

There are a few outliers...but generally the good d-catchers are at the top & Piazza at the bottom

For a proper analysis you need the boxscores.

DonMattingly · 06-03-2020, 03:10 PM

@KleineBiere

Which metric(s) would you look at other than CERA?

DonMattingly · 06-04-2020, 05:42 PM

I'll try something with 2 of my teams next week and post back how it goes.

I'll do a 50/50 split of games catching between Brian Harper and and Austin Hedges. It's about as extreme of a difference as I can easily find/afford on the AH.

This way they will both be catching the exact same staff and have the same defense and home park. I'll post the difference in CERAs between the two at the end of next week.

steamrollers · 06-05-2020, 05:48 AM

I did Roberto Perez and Brian Harper one season, this was after they were to have "fixed" the catcher defense to make it noticeable. Before the fix you could put in anybody with a pulse and they would do fine but after it seemed to really make a difference. I would have to activate those guys to the reserve roster to look at the stats from that year but I do remember it was a massive difference and had talked about it on someones twitch stream. Off the top of my head I remember just the era alone was nearly a 2 difference and all the important numbers were in laughable favor of Perez as Harper was just brutal.

X3NEIZE · 06-05-2020, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

@KleineBiere

Which metric(s) would you look at other than CERA?

What you really want to look at is K's and BB with each pitcher and the deltas between CatcherB with the same pitchers over a good number of games, but there's no report for that, it's all manually done.... with xls

lightningbolts35 · 06-05-2020, 10:18 AM

I have seen no difference in catcher ability in relation to CERA. I had a 100 Perfect Bench with catcher ability of 100 and also used 100 Perfect King Kelly with a catcher ability of 51 and for those 3 seasons, King Kelly had a better CERA. Not to mention King Kelly hits tremendously better than Bench. Just my opinion...

Orcin · 06-05-2020, 01:18 PM

There are three top teams (i.e. good pitching staff) in my gold league that use a platoon of Berra and Piazza. On two of the teams, Berra has a better CERA by almost a half a run. On the other team, Piazza is better by a half a run. It's a small sample, but Piazza should never be better given his ratings.

I see a lot of good teams running this platoon. You would think that the better teams would have moved away from Piazza if defense mattered a lot.

Spieler · 06-05-2020, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X3NEIZE

What you really want to look at is K's and BB with each pitcher and the deltas between CatcherB with the same pitchers over a good number of games, but there's no report for that, it's all manually done.... with xls

I agree with this. In this game, catchers cannot really affect HRs or BiP. But you should see an effect on BB and K (with a large enough sample size like mentioned above)

CERA is a nice toy, but I wouldn't use it to judge whether one catcher is better than another, or whether the ratings "work". Too many other factors and probably no where enough sample size.

Orcin · 06-07-2020, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X3NEIZE

What you really want to look at is K's and BB with each pitcher and the deltas between CatcherB with the same pitchers over a good number of games, but there's no report for that, it's all manually done.... with xls

I did this with my catchers (Berra and Piazza) with a sample of 20-25 games each using the same pitchers. It's a small sample size but it was interesting anyway. In every case, the pitchers had more walks per 9 IP with Piazza, and it was significant in most cases. The total of all pitchers was 1.7 BB/9 with Berra catching and 3.2 BB/9 with Piazza.

Piazza is now at DH and Jason Kendall is my new backup catcher.

DonMattingly · 06-14-2020, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

I'll try something with 2 of my teams next week and post back how it goes.

I'll do a 50/50 split of games catching between Brian Harper and and Austin Hedges. It's about as extreme of a difference as I can easily find/afford on the AH.

This way they will both be catching the exact same staff and have the same defense and home park. I'll post the difference in CERAs between the two at the end of next week.

I did this with all three of my teams this week.

Hedges always had a better CERA than Harper. The differences per team:

0.4
1.4
2.4

So Hedges on average had a CERA that was 1.4 runs less than Harper.

06-02-2020, 09:44 PM	#1
DonMattingly Major Leagues Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 310	CERA in PT 21 I noticed in PT 19, catcher defense had a pretty large effect on the performance of the pitchers. And that mostly went away in PT 20. Has anyone studied how much effect catchers have in PT 21, ie how much difference is there in CERA between varying skill levels in catching defense?

06-03-2020, 12:32 AM	#4
X3NEIZE All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 649	In OOTP20 catcher defense had zero influence over the game.... I used Kelly King for ever and was almost always the top defending team..... It was broken. In OOTP21 even though there's been a patch to address framing, I really cannot tell the difference. Of course we need a data dump to make a fair conclusion... __________________

06-03-2020, 02:14 AM	#5
thejojo Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 389	I had a Jason Kendall who had a CERA of 6.11 and my pitchers didn't perform well. __________________ [IMG]https://challenge.ootpdevelopments.com/pt24signatures/thejojo.jpg[IMG]

06-05-2020, 10:18 AM	#11
lightningbolts35 Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 57	I have seen no difference in catcher ability in relation to CERA. I had a 100 Perfect Bench with catcher ability of 100 and also used 100 Perfect King Kelly with a catcher ability of 51 and for those 3 seasons, King Kelly had a better CERA. Not to mention King Kelly hits tremendously better than Bench. Just my opinion... __________________

06-03-2020, 09:09 AM	#6
KleineBiere Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 108	CERA is the wrong metric. But let's have a look at some rookie level numbers. There are a few outliers...but generally the good d-catchers are at the top & Piazza at the bottom For a proper analysis you need the boxscores.

06-03-2020, 03:10 PM	#7
DonMattingly Major Leagues Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 310	@KleineBiere Which metric(s) would you look at other than CERA?

06-04-2020, 05:42 PM	#8
DonMattingly Major Leagues Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 310	I'll try something with 2 of my teams next week and post back how it goes. I'll do a 50/50 split of games catching between Brian Harper and and Austin Hedges. It's about as extreme of a difference as I can easily find/afford on the AH. This way they will both be catching the exact same staff and have the same defense and home park. I'll post the difference in CERAs between the two at the end of next week.

06-05-2020, 05:48 AM	#9
steamrollers Minors (Single A) Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 95	I did Roberto Perez and Brian Harper one season, this was after they were to have "fixed" the catcher defense to make it noticeable. Before the fix you could put in anybody with a pulse and they would do fine but after it seemed to really make a difference. I would have to activate those guys to the reserve roster to look at the stats from that year but I do remember it was a massive difference and had talked about it on someones twitch stream. Off the top of my head I remember just the era alone was nearly a 2 difference and all the important numbers were in laughable favor of Perez as Harper was just brutal.

06-05-2020, 01:18 PM	#12
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,847 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	There are three top teams (i.e. good pitching staff) in my gold league that use a platoon of Berra and Piazza. On two of the teams, Berra has a better CERA by almost a half a run. On the other team, Piazza is better by a half a run. It's a small sample, but Piazza should never be better given his ratings. I see a lot of good teams running this platoon. You would think that the better teams would have moved away from Piazza if defense mattered a lot.