Issue with Promotion/Relegation?

JamesCh · 05-21-2020, 10:04 AM

I like to play fictional leagues with promotion/relegation, which I used to accomplish manually in previous versions before the new season. I like the idea of using the game's automatic promotion/relegation tool, since teams facing relegation are said to play in 'win now' mode to avoid relegation, etc. I am using version '21 now, but had not owned since '17.

But, the timing of the feature seems problematic. With the confirmation tool appearing so soon after the season ends, the game seems to become confused. The relegation prompt appears right after the season is over, and I completed it then. But the teams which had just secured promotion from Level 2 to Level 1 (as well as from Level 3 to Level 2) immediately fired their GMs and Managers -- and no wonder, since their bios showed the team as having finished 42 games back (I think because the promoted team immediately appears in the standings in the league it is promoted to, with a record of 0-0). Teams that moved leagues had award winners like Platinum Stick in the destination league rather than the league they had just completed a season in.

My question:How long will the promotion/relegation confirmation tool remain available? Should I have simply waited until say, the Winter Meetings and used the tool then to avoid these issues?

PocketsAintFull · 05-21-2020, 10:27 AM

If it's an issue with season records, waiting until January 1st would be more beneficial, though this certainly sounds like a bug rather than a desired outcome.

JamesCh · 05-21-2020, 10:45 AM

yes, it is definitely causing record issues. One team promoted after Year 2 shows a Year 2 record of 0-0, so essentially an entire year's win-loss record was lost for that team. For two other promoted teams, the Year 2 record is displayed correctly once in their team histories, but in each case there is also a second line for the same year, this time with a 0-0 record.

I wonder if this would have been helped by waiting until later to activate the promotion/relegation tool. I guess I will have to restore.

JamesCh · 05-21-2020, 10:58 AM

Noticed in the settings after restoring that if I do nothing to confirm with the tool when it first appears, the program should automatically handle promotion/relegation "on the first day of the offseason." Guessing that may avoid these issues.

Eugene Church · 05-21-2020, 12:35 PM

Not sure if my post will help you or not... I didn't have the same experience as you did.

I did not let the AI promote and relegate... I manually promote and relegate... an experienced gamer suggested this prior to my first time to do it... as the manual suggest I did it on the first day of the offseason.

After I promoted and relegated, when I looked at the league history, it looked like it was incorrect... the promoted and relegated teams showed 0-0 in the league history for the year I just completed... I just knew I had fouled up the league history.

The good news for me was that when I advanced to the preseason, the game had replaced the 0-0 in the league history with the correct team records.

It seems that may be the way the game does it.

It sure scared the heck out of me... I just knew I had ruined my good league... I can't play a league with incorrect history.

JamesCh · 05-21-2020, 12:37 PM

After restoring to the league start and simming a couple of seasons to test this out, it seems to be solved and here is what I would recommend for anyone facing this issue:

-- let the program handle relegation/promotion automatically, meaning ignore the popup menu item that appears as the season ends

--edit the date of the league event for automatic promotion/relegation (league news ----->events) so that it occurs later, such as just before the winter meetings. Where it is scheduled by default (immediately at end of season) is too soon and impacts awards, manager/GM hirings/firings, team won-loss histories, etc.

-- have 'break ties with tiebreaker games' checked in League settings ----> options. This will avoid having to make any manual adjustments.

Eugene Church · 05-21-2020, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesCh

After restoring to the league start and simming a couple of seasons to test this out, it seems to be solved and here is what I would recommend for anyone facing this issue:

-- let the program handle relegation/promotion automatically, meaning ignore the popup menu item that appears as the season ends

--edit the date of the league event for automatic promotion/relegation (league news ----->events) so that it occurs later, such as just before the winter meetings. Where it is scheduled by default (immediately at end of season) is too soon and impacts awards, manager/GM hirings/firings, team won-loss histories, etc.

-- have 'break ties with tiebreaker games' checked in League settings ----> options. This will avoid having to make any manual adjustments.

Thanks for sharing this... it looks like I should make this adjustment and do the process later like you.

Matt Arnold · 05-21-2020, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesCh

After restoring to the league start and simming a couple of seasons to test this out, it seems to be solved and here is what I would recommend for anyone facing this issue:

-- let the program handle relegation/promotion automatically, meaning ignore the popup menu item that appears as the season ends

--edit the date of the league event for automatic promotion/relegation (league news ----->events) so that it occurs later, such as just before the winter meetings. Where it is scheduled by default (immediately at end of season) is too soon and impacts awards, manager/GM hirings/firings, team won-loss histories, etc.

-- have 'break ties with tiebreaker games' checked in League settings ----> options. This will avoid having to make any manual adjustments.

We can certainly look to move the automatic date out later. Could you tell if the date was too early because lower level leagues hadn't finished yet and didn't all move to the off-season together, or if there was another reason? It should have waiting for all the leagues to finish, which should be after any record-keeping pieces get updated.

andyhdz · 05-21-2020, 02:23 PM

Ok I have to clarify some things here so this is done correctly. The issues described above happens when someone chooses their pro/rel league to have automatic pro/rel and then chooses to do it manually when they get the pop up message.

However, if someone sets up their league for manual pro/rel and manually promotes and relegates like they are supposed to when the offseason starts NONE of what was described above happens. Promoted teams do not fire managers, records show up correctly on the first day of preseason as described and players get their awards in the right league. So any changes done please don't mess up manual pro/rel. I'm on year 81 of my pro/rel league so I'm pretty familiar with what happens by now.

I do have to list again the one true bug that is in manual pro/rel that has never been fixed. If a user chooses to promote or relegate a team other the the one the AI chooses in the pro/rel screen the team that should have been promoted or relegated will have severe financial screwups in their finances that are unfixable. Salaries and expenses are not cleared and essentially doubled so it ruins their budget. This essentially destroys any chances of users having relegation tournaments or other setups for promotion/relegation other than winning percentage. If you would fix this it would be great. Please.

Rain King · 05-21-2020, 02:29 PM

Also need to be careful about making the Pro/Rel move too late. You don't want the team to be in the wrong league when Free Agency starts as that could affect how they are seen by the players.

JamesCh · 05-21-2020, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

We can certainly look to move the automatic date out later. Could you tell if the date was too early because lower level leagues hadn't finished yet and didn't all move to the off-season together, or if there was another reason? It should have waiting for all the leagues to finish, which should be after any record-keeping pieces get updated.

In the original setup, all three leagues had finished on the same day (July 31). The program made promotion/relegation happen soon afterwards, for all three leagues, I believe on August 1 but close to that for sure. It also prompted me then in the league menu and I dealt with it immediately by confirming the teams which had been automatically chosen. Not sure if that detail had an impact (that is, not just letting it happen when it would, but actively confirming). But what seemed to be a problem was that teams had not made hiring/firing decisions yet, and the awards were not chosen yet. Now those choices were all impacted when made by the new absence of the relegated or promoted teams from the leagues (examples: manager of promoted team is fired because team record in new league's standings of 0-0 was seen as a failure, 40 fewer wins than champion). By moving the event to later, it seemed to work fine because those decisions had already been made.

andyhdz · 05-21-2020, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain King

Also need to be careful about making the Pro/Rel move too late. You don't want the team to be in the wrong league when Free Agency starts as that could affect how they are seen by the players.

Pro/rel players know their leagues can never be set it and forget it. Too many variables that need to be looked and tweaked. Thats what makes playing them so fun. It's never the same teams in the same league. The evolution of league history and team history is amazing. I just had the Philadelphia Freedom relegated for the first time in their 81 year old history. I could hear the screaming in the Philly sports talk shows from here.

yuazda · 06-22-2020, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyhdz

I do have to list again the one true bug that is in manual pro/rel that has never been fixed. If a user chooses to promote or relegate a team other the the one the AI chooses in the pro/rel screen the team that should have been promoted or relegated will have severe financial screwups in their finances that are unfixable. Salaries and expenses are not cleared and essentially doubled so it ruins their budget. This essentially destroys any chances of users having relegation tournaments or other setups for promotion/relegation other than winning percentage. If you would fix this it would be great. Please.

Yikes, is it true that there's no way to fix this? I'm in year 4 of my pro/rel and having a blast but my setup is that the lower leagues have a 5-team playoffs (best seed gets an auto-bye all the way to the championship) and the champion + the two other best records are the three teams that earn promotion. I guess I've been lucky so far that no 4th or 5th place teams have earned promotion yet...guess I should just stick with "best three records" for now?

andyhdz · 06-23-2020, 01:50 AM

Like I said before just have all 5 playoff teams promote and then manually move 2 of those teams down and change budget manually to lower level again. It has worked for me for 80 years.

05-21-2020, 10:04 AM	#1
JamesCh Bat Boy Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17	Issue with Promotion/Relegation? I like to play fictional leagues with promotion/relegation, which I used to accomplish manually in previous versions before the new season. I like the idea of using the game's automatic promotion/relegation tool, since teams facing relegation are said to play in 'win now' mode to avoid relegation, etc. I am using version '21 now, but had not owned since '17. But, the timing of the feature seems problematic. With the confirmation tool appearing so soon after the season ends, the game seems to become confused. The relegation prompt appears right after the season is over, and I completed it then. But the teams which had just secured promotion from Level 2 to Level 1 (as well as from Level 3 to Level 2) immediately fired their GMs and Managers -- and no wonder, since their bios showed the team as having finished 42 games back (I think because the promoted team immediately appears in the standings in the league it is promoted to, with a record of 0-0). Teams that moved leagues had award winners like Platinum Stick in the destination league rather than the league they had just completed a season in. My question:How long will the promotion/relegation confirmation tool remain available? Should I have simply waited until say, the Winter Meetings and used the tool then to avoid these issues?

05-21-2020, 10:27 AM	#2
PocketsAintFull All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Birmingham, UK Posts: 1,891	If it's an issue with season records, waiting until January 1st would be more beneficial, though this certainly sounds like a bug rather than a desired outcome. __________________ ---------------- Bob Uecker, RIP

05-21-2020, 12:35 PM	#5
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36,152	Not sure if my post will help you or not... I didn't have the same experience as you did. I did not let the AI promote and relegate... I manually promote and relegate... an experienced gamer suggested this prior to my first time to do it... as the manual suggest I did it on the first day of the offseason. After I promoted and relegated, when I looked at the league history, it looked like it was incorrect... the promoted and relegated teams showed 0-0 in the league history for the year I just completed... I just knew I had fouled up the league history. The good news for me was that when I advanced to the preseason, the game had replaced the 0-0 in the league history with the correct team records. It seems that may be the way the game does it. It sure scared the heck out of me... I just knew I had ruined my good league... I can't play a league with incorrect history. Last edited by Eugene Church; 05-21-2020 at 12:39 PM.

05-21-2020, 02:23 PM	#9
andyhdz All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Fresno, CA by way of Texas Posts: 1,754	Ok I have to clarify some things here so this is done correctly. The issues described above happens when someone chooses their pro/rel league to have automatic pro/rel and then chooses to do it manually when they get the pop up message. However, if someone sets up their league for manual pro/rel and manually promotes and relegates like they are supposed to when the offseason starts NONE of what was described above happens. Promoted teams do not fire managers, records show up correctly on the first day of preseason as described and players get their awards in the right league. So any changes done please don't mess up manual pro/rel. I'm on year 81 of my pro/rel league so I'm pretty familiar with what happens by now. I do have to list again the one true bug that is in manual pro/rel that has never been fixed. If a user chooses to promote or relegate a team other the the one the AI chooses in the pro/rel screen the team that should have been promoted or relegated will have severe financial screwups in their finances that are unfixable. Salaries and expenses are not cleared and essentially doubled so it ruins their budget. This essentially destroys any chances of users having relegation tournaments or other setups for promotion/relegation other than winning percentage. If you would fix this it would be great. Please. __________________ *************************************** It's your game. Play it how you like it. *************************************** Last edited by andyhdz; 05-21-2020 at 02:29 PM.

06-23-2020, 01:50 AM	#14
andyhdz All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Fresno, CA by way of Texas Posts: 1,754	Like I said before just have all 5 playoff teams promote and then manually move 2 of those teams down and change budget manually to lower level again. It has worked for me for 80 years. __________________ *************************************** It's your game. Play it how you like it. ***************************************

05-21-2020, 10:45 AM	#3
JamesCh Bat Boy Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17	yes, it is definitely causing record issues. One team promoted after Year 2 shows a Year 2 record of 0-0, so essentially an entire year's win-loss record was lost for that team. For two other promoted teams, the Year 2 record is displayed correctly once in their team histories, but in each case there is also a second line for the same year, this time with a 0-0 record. I wonder if this would have been helped by waiting until later to activate the promotion/relegation tool. I guess I will have to restore.

05-21-2020, 10:58 AM	#4
JamesCh Bat Boy Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17	Noticed in the settings after restoring that if I do nothing to confirm with the tool when it first appears, the program should automatically handle promotion/relegation "on the first day of the offseason." Guessing that may avoid these issues.

05-21-2020, 12:37 PM	#6
JamesCh Bat Boy Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17	After restoring to the league start and simming a couple of seasons to test this out, it seems to be solved and here is what I would recommend for anyone facing this issue: -- let the program handle relegation/promotion automatically, meaning ignore the popup menu item that appears as the season ends --edit the date of the league event for automatic promotion/relegation (league news ----->events) so that it occurs later, such as just before the winter meetings. Where it is scheduled by default (immediately at end of season) is too soon and impacts awards, manager/GM hirings/firings, team won-loss histories, etc. -- have 'break ties with tiebreaker games' checked in League settings ----> options. This will avoid having to make any manual adjustments.

05-21-2020, 02:29 PM	#10
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,295	Also need to be careful about making the Pro/Rel move too late. You don't want the team to be in the wrong league when Free Agency starts as that could affect how they are seen by the players.