Why is Warren Spahn rated so low?

[italyprof]

Warren Spahn was a dominant pitcher for more than a decade, probably the best of the whole 1950s and even as late as 1960-61 arguably the best pitcher in the game.

I have him on my 1960 team now starting 1961. Straight up historical - no random debut, just 1960. Double value to current year.

Spahn, who in 1959 - RL 1959 - went 22-11 with a 2.96 ERA and in 1960 RL went 21-10 with a 3.50 - in MY 1960 was 8-16 with a 4.95.

He is rated overall as 52/52. While movement and control are rated at 60/65, which seems ok, stuff is 40/45, which seems low even though he was not a power pitcher. Further, his pitches ratings are very low: His screwball -- his best pitch, is rated at 40, only because I edited it up from 27 (!), sinker 45, curveball 35, slider 30, changeup 40, fastball 45.

Yet his lifetime stats show that he should be a first-rate pitcher through 1963.

What is up? Is this a glitch? A mistake? A Dodgers fan from the old days setting the ratings?

What could I do about it, without "cheating" - should I edit these ratings somewhat to be a little more realistic, so I don't have a Spahn that loses 20 games each of his last five or six seasons and ends up with a lifetime ERA of 5.00?

If I edit the ratings, what would be reasonable ones, without me gaming the game as it were?

Thanks in advance for any insight or suggestions.

[scott1964]

Yeah, he is not tearing it up in 1946.

[Ty Cobb]

I'm betting on the Dodgers fan angle. Spahn was wickedly good, and consistently underwhelms in game.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

I'm betting on the Dodgers fan angle. Spahn was wickedly good, and consistently underwhelms in game.

Do you think it's because he wasn't a huge strikeout guy? Isn't Catfish Hunter another guy that underwhelms?

[ralphieboy]

I would definitely think it's because of the lack of strike outs, which creates lower stuff. I imported Catfish Hunter into one of my fictional leagues and saw the same. You need to have solid defense behind these type of pitchers since so many balls end up in play.

[Ty Cobb]

I'd agree with that completely.

[sprague]

For me the issue is how OOTP rates pitchers, simply directly from stats H, HR, W, SO. Which on the surface seems like a way to rate them, the same as you would with hitters. But there is a catch, 2 pitchers can have the same base stats, but the average pitcher goes 12-9 with a 3.56 ERA, while the star pitcher with similar stats goes 18-5 with a 2.96 ERA. What gives?
When they give up the hits and homeruns. The weaker pitcher gives them up with runners on. Jim Palmer or Bob Gibson give them up with no one on. Runners on second and third, 1 out, they strike out the next two batters- the average pitcher gives up a SF and a hit and give up 2 runs.
OOTP, hell even strat o matic or others dont take that into account.

One reason I stopped playing historical because I have to go in and change every pitcher to give a better reflection of their ERA as opposed to straight stats. Or at least give good pitchers a 10% boost in thier GB rating to help a bit

I have the same issue with fielding ratings (Ie how R Clemente winds up with a 125 arm while Reggie Jackson gets a 180 for example)

Anyway my 2 cents on the issue

[Brad K]

So, a star pitcher gives up nine hits, one per inning, and pitches a shut out. An average pitcher give up nine hits, four in the fifth and five in the eight and gives up five runs. Why is the average pitcher so much better than the star for most of the game?

[swoboda]

I have experienced some of the same issues and used the edit function to make performance line up better with actual history.

[scott1964]

1947

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by scott1964

1947

That could very easily turn into a Hall worthy pitcher. Spahn is solid till age 42 in real life.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by sprague

I have the same issue with fielding ratings (Ie how R Clemente winds up with a 125 arm while Reggie Jackson gets a 180 for example)

Anyway my 2 cents on the issue

for their careers clemente has a 43% higher than average arm rating for RF's (top 10) and Jackson is slightly worse than average. every individual year is different of course.

since the game randomly assigns when pitchers give up hits and walks and homeruns there is no clear way to control this. plus keep in mind that if spahn performs worse than you expect in a particular sim there is another pitcher performing better than expected in the same sim. for some reason he is never heard about.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by swoboda

I have experienced some of the same issues and used the edit function to make performance line up better with actual history.

WIns and ERA are not stats to try to match. If that's what you're doing.

[webrian]

I think the way the game is engineered, it struggles with pitchers from that era. I found Philadelphia A's ace Lefty Grove (1931) to be only slightly better than mediocre when playing in his era.

Same with Lefty Gomez. Same with Red Ruffing.

Since the 1920s to late 1950s were not really a power pitcher's era, every pitcher suffers on his "stuff" rating. The top power pitchers had only average "stuff" ratings, but their movement and control ratings were excellent.

But if you play an exhibition series with any of these pitchers on MODERN settings, they become really dominant. They come to life.

It's worth trying, as an experiment, with Warren Spahn.

[scott1964]

Here is the Top 30 in Wins from my world