Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP 26 Available - FHM 11 Available - OOTP Go! Available

Out of the Park Baseball 26 Buy Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Prior Versions of Our Games > Out of the Park Baseball 20 > OOTP 20 - General Discussions

OOTP 20 - General Discussions Everything about the newest version of Out of the Park Baseball - officially licensed by MLB.com and the MLBPA.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-23-2019, 11:27 PM   #1
Dyzalot
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,735
Someday I hope the AI can "think" like this.

OK so just wanted to post a "strategy" spot that the AI misses which I think says something more general in how the AI "thinks". I'm not posting to criticize. I understand how difficult this stuff is to get right. Its more of a "wish list" of mine that someday this will be as obvious to the AI as it is to me.

So the basic premise here is that Kirilloff just got on first in the bottom of the 8th in a game they are leading 5-0. I have the strategy sliders for pinch running maxed. I have a defensive replacement slotted for Kirilloff to come in by the 8th inning or later. Kirilloff has an injury rating of "Fragile". The entire bench is available. Someday my hope is that the AI sees the "big picture" in spots like this and understands it as an obvious spot to pinch run to prevent your excellent hitting but injury prone first baseman from getting injured, especially since he is slated to come out for a defensive replacement in the top of the 9th anyways.
Attached Images
Image Image 
Dyzalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 12:26 AM   #2
mars001
All Star Reserve
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 913
I agree. That would be fantastic. Not an expert but this does seem like a tough thing to code for though. I wonder if even in a more simplistic way if the AI considers injury rating when subbing late in a game. If the score isn't close and you have someone that is injury prone, substitute.
mars001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2019, 09:39 AM   #3
Sweed
Hall Of Famer
 
Sweed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Iowa
Posts: 6,607
Definitely an avenue to explore and as noted by both of you something that might be hard to get just right. That doesn't mean it can't \ shouldn't be done

Maybe something that could be tied into manager tendencies so it's not the same across the board?

Maybe could be added to individual player strategies, or is it already there? lol I play out my games so don't dig into that much other than forcing rest for some minor leaguers.

Yes, were talking about the AI doing it so, maybe the AI could analyze it's players and use those "player strategies" too for situations like this? Again the goal to make it individualized and not the same across the board for all players.
Sweed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 04:29 PM   #4
Dyzalot
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweed View Post

Yes, were talking about the AI doing it so, maybe the AI could analyze it's players and use those "player strategies" too for situations like this? Again the goal to make it individualized and not the same across the board for all players.
Why the emphasis on making it "individualized"? Do you think there is currently a MLB organization that would consider it a bad idea to pinch hit in the example above? I agree with individualization from a theoretical aspect as not every team or manager acts the same. However, that is only true within a very narrow set of parameters. There are many baseball strategies available that never get used in MLB but do get used at "lower" levels. Personally I just wish the strategies used by the AI when playing a "modern MLB' quick start mirrored those by managers in real life MLB without employing strategies outside the standard parameters employed by MLB managers.

Here are a few strategies currently used by the AI in a MLB quick start which I believe fall outside the normal parameters of a modern day MLB manager.

- Using a double switch to only move the pitching spot two places in the batting order

- Sac bunting in the first inning with the reigning MVP just because he bats second.

- pulling the infield in with the bases loaded and less than two outs when behind in the fifth inning (especially with a slow runner at the plate)

- sac bunting in the 7th inning or later when down by more than one run

- pulling pitchers, especially starters after they get the first out of an inning, sometimes even by strikeout without a corresponding injury

There are others but these were the ones I could remember off the top of my head. None of these should be happening in a modern MLB quick start. Some of them may be more appropriate if playing historical or playing with a setup based on an era before 1990.

I'm fine with individualism in mlb manager strategy as long as those choices fall within parameters that coincide with the parameters of current MLB managers. I just don't like it when a manager in my sim employs a strategy that fell out of favor even before guys like Wade Boggs started to be placed in the 2-hole of a batting order. How many times did Boggs sac bunt in the first inning in his career?
Dyzalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 04:49 PM   #5
One Great Matrix
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,782
I'm not sure why you say especially starters when it comes to pulling a pitcher after he gets the first batter out.

Sometimes the pitcher is taken out after he gets the 1st out in an inning for a number of different reasons.

Starters might reach pitch count limit or fatigue limit and it just happen to be after they got the first out in inning or the hitter may have been an ideal match-up but then opt for a reliever.

And I guess you understand with relievers a little more, most because he's something of a specialist otherwise it wouldn't make a lot of sense to just bring in reliever for a single batter.
__________________


One Great Matrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 04:57 PM   #6
Sweed
Hall Of Famer
 
Sweed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Iowa
Posts: 6,607
Didn't come into this to argue about all of the possible situations. I actually came in to support your idea Global setting could certainly be improved upon.

Tying it in with manager's tendencies is bad in what way? My thought here was if I can do it for individual players and the AI can't or won't, isn't the human being given an edge? I have an iron man and also a durable player that I would not take out in a 5-0 ballgame, maybe that's just me? Hell, I have a great LF that is fragile that I might not take out either at 5-0. I've seen many games that were "over" end up not as "over" as everyone thought. Seeing eye single, hit batter, bb, double and 3 score, followed by a 2 run homer. My Cubs ended up winning the WS in a game that was "over" until a manager's decision outside of real life parameters tried to give it away, aided by one of those strange type of innings.

With that in mind I have no problem if manger A pinch runs, and manager B does not.
Sweed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 05:46 PM   #7
Dyzalot
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Great Matrix View Post
I'm not sure why you say especially starters when it comes to pulling a pitcher after he gets the first batter out.

Sometimes the pitcher is taken out after he gets the 1st out in an inning for a number of different reasons.

Starters might reach pitch count limit or fatigue limit and it just happen to be after they got the first out in inning or the hitter may have been an ideal match-up but then opt for a reliever.

And I guess you understand with relievers a little more, most because he's something of a specialist otherwise it wouldn't make a lot of sense to just bring in reliever for a single batter.
"Especially with starters" because it isn't uncommon to leave a lefty or righty reliever in for one guy if opposing handed guys are due up after. However with the OOTP AI I will see it use a righty starter in the top of the 7th with no pitch count set for the guy against a lefty batter, strike him out then remove him when a righty is due next. I'd have to search long and hard to find the same scenario in real life MLB without a corresponding injury or hard pitch count. Managers typically will not send a starter out for the next inning if they think they are only good for one batter. If they are unsure and send them out and then get a strike out, well who pulls a guy after that?
Dyzalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 05:55 PM   #8
Dyzalot
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweed View Post
Didn't come into this to argue about all of the possible situations. I actually came in to support your idea Global setting could certainly be improved upon.

Tying it in with manager's tendencies is bad in what way? My thought here was if I can do it for individual players and the AI can't or won't, isn't the human being given an edge? I have an iron man and also a durable player that I would not take out in a 5-0 ballgame, maybe that's just me? Hell, I have a great LF that is fragile that I might not take out either at 5-0. I've seen many games that were "over" end up not as "over" as everyone thought. Seeing eye single, hit batter, bb, double and 3 score, followed by a 2 run homer. My Cubs ended up winning the WS in a game that was "over" until a manager's decision outside of real life parameters tried to give it away, aided by one of those strange type of innings.

With that in mind I have no problem if manger A pinch runs, and manager B does not.
I have no problems tying it in with manager tendencies as long as those tendencies don't fall outside the normal parameters of managing for the era you set the game up for. If I'm playing in 1920, I don't want any managers deciding they have a "closer" and using a pitcher that way. If I'm playing in 2018, I don't want any manager asking Manny Machado to sac bunt in the first inning just because he bats second. The reverse of those is fine though.

How does your "iron man, durable guy" who you don't have a defensive replacement for have any bearing on anything I said? What did I say that would force the AI to sub for him? Do current MLB managers always sub for those guys when up five runs? I don't understand the point you are making with that example.

As for your "games aren't over yet", I agree with you. Again, what did I say that made you believe otherwise? In fact, I have argued this very problem of the AI "giving up" too early when playing in modern day eras. I have seen many times where the AI over uses a long reliever in a five to zero playoff game and even sub for stars when they should be trying to win. Again, I complain because that very thing falls outside normal parameters for modern day managers. No one is subbing for their star in a 5-0 playoff game in order to rest him and no manager is using his long reliever in an elimination game until they are down 10+. But the AI in OOTP does the opposite. So you are arguing with me about things I agree with you on.
Dyzalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 06:16 PM   #9
Sweed
Hall Of Famer
 
Sweed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Iowa
Posts: 6,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
I have no problems tying it in with manager tendencies as long as those tendencies don't fall outside the normal parameters of managing for the era you set the game up for. If I'm playing in 1920, I don't want any managers deciding they have a "closer" and using a pitcher that way. If I'm playing in 2018, I don't want any manager asking Manny Machado to sac bunt in the first inning just because he bats second. The reverse of those is fine though.

How does your "iron man, durable guy" who you don't have a defensive replacement for have any bearing on anything I said? What did I say that would force the AI to sub for him? Do current MLB managers always sub for those guys when up five runs? I don't understand the point you are making with that example.

As for your "games aren't over yet", I agree with you. Again, what did I say that made you believe otherwise? In fact, I have argued this very problem of the AI "giving up" too early when playing in modern day eras. I have seen many times where the AI over uses a long reliever in a five to zero playoff game and even sub for stars when they should be trying to win. Again, I complain because that very thing falls outside normal parameters for modern day managers. No one is subbing for their star in a 5-0 playoff game in order to rest him and no manager is using his long reliever in an elimination game until they are down 10+. But the AI in OOTP does the opposite. So you are arguing with me about things I agree with you on.
Like I said I came in to support your idea not waste my time arguing
Sweed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 06:25 PM   #10
Dyzalot
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweed View Post
Like I said I came in to support your idea not waste my time arguing
Its all good. I get pretty passionate about defending my ideas, especially when it involves my favorite sim for my favorite sport. No hard feeling since I believe we pretty much have the same goals.
Dyzalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2019, 06:52 PM   #11
Dyzalot
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,735
Game I just happened to finish is the perfect example of what I mean by "removing a starter after one out" "problem". No pitch count. Throwing a shutout. Only 104 pitches. He;s 26 yrs old and he's rated "Durable". Is there really a current MLB manager that would do this if he wasn't injured?
Attached Images
Image Image Image Image 
Dyzalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2019, 12:15 AM   #12
Bobfather
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Boston Ma.
Posts: 1,547
I am just curious. Not being snarky or mean. (please don't blow me up). What is preventing you from managing your team. I understand if school/work/family gets in the way. I manage every game for my team except ST. It's a blast if it is your thing. I just started my third season with XX.I wish the AI could leearn my tendecies opposing and my team. Then maybe after 50 games you could switch to GM mode.
Bobfather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2019, 03:57 AM   #13
Dyzalot
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobfather View Post
I am just curious. Not being snarky or mean. (please don't blow me up). What is preventing you from managing your team. I understand if school/work/family gets in the way. I manage every game for my team except ST. It's a blast if it is your thing. I just started my third season with XX.I wish the AI could leearn my tendecies opposing and my team. Then maybe after 50 games you could switch to GM mode.
Two reasons. One is that I like to take current "rebuilding projects" and sim several years out to see how long it takes to make them a winner. That just takes too long if I manage every game. The other problem to me is that I have a huge advantage over the AI in terms of bullpen usage, bench usage, when to steal, etc. It just feels like a large advantage that would make it even easier to build a dynasty than it already is. So I enjoy simming one week at a time, which is basically what most of the online leagues do, and "manage" using the strategy and depth chart settings. I point out the deficiencies in the AI's thinking not just because it harms my team but also when it harms the team I'm playing against.

When I was young the closest I could come to this experience was playing out Strat-O-Matic games as the manager of both teams. I could become the manager of every team and play in commish mode but again that adds a bunch of time to my sims and I like the idea of owning/managing one team. OOTP is about 98% of the way to what I basically dreamed would someday be available back in 1981 when I was using my 1980 version of Strat and trying to play out every game for every team for the season. I basically have two wishes for this game. One is that I can play against an AI that is indistinguishable from a generic manager of the era and two is that I could be shown random box scores from MLB and OOTP and not be able to do better than 50/50 in picking out which is which. Until then I will continue to point out areas that I think can be improved upon.
Dyzalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2019, 10:25 AM   #14
BirdWatcher
Hall Of Famer
 
BirdWatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 4,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobfather View Post
I am just curious. Not being snarky or mean. (please don't blow me up). What is preventing you from managing your team. I understand if school/work/family gets in the way. I manage every game for my team except ST. It's a blast if it is your thing. I just started my third season with XX.I wish the AI could leearn my tendecies opposing and my team. Then maybe after 50 games you could switch to GM mode.
I've often found myself thinking that it would be wonderful if OOTP was an interactive, human-in-the-loop sort of AI (I apologize if these terms are incorrect or imprecise- I'm not a techie) and could learn from the input it gets from the user. Of course I realize that given the limitations of the resources here and the very reasonable amount of money this product costs, that is unrealistic at this point.
But hey, maybe someday.
__________________

The Denver Brewers of the W.P. Kinsella League--
The fun starts here(1965-1971: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=289570
And continues here (1972-1976): https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=300500
On we go (1977- 1979): https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=314601
For ongoing and more random updates on the WPK:https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=325147, https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=330717
BirdWatcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2019, 10:52 AM   #15
CBeisbol
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Ban land in 3...2...
Posts: 2,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
Game I just happened to finish is the perfect example of what I mean by "removing a starter after one out" "problem". No pitch count. Throwing a shutout. Only 104 pitches. He;s 26 yrs old and he's rated "Durable". Is there really a current MLB manager that would do this if he wasn't injured?
In this case, it looks like he was coming off an injury that kept him out for 2 months. He'd only had 2 starts back.

It would have made more sense for him to not start the ninth than to face one hitter. Agreed.
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:43 PM.

 

Major League and Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of Major League Baseball. Visit MLB.com and MiLB.com.

Officially Licensed Product – MLB Players, Inc.

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2023 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2024 Out of the Park Developments